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Vetronia City and Regional Planning
Topic Rating: +2 (2 votes) 
July 2, 2012
3:03 pm
LightWarriorK
Aelfheim, Arda
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Preface

Part of this thread will probably parallel the MVPP thread, but this will be fairly extensive and I don't want to hijack Ryan's thread.  Please try and separate the discussions.  Also keep in mind that everything I discuss here is merely an interpretation of Planning practice and theory as it could relate to VeteranCraft, and like all Planning even IRL is NOT set in stone.  Comment, question, critique, and criticize, but do so constructively.

Background

I am LightWarriorK.  Most of you regulars know me by now, and I'd like to think that after a month of playing on VeteranCraft I have started to integrate with the society on this server.  IRL, I have my Master's Degree in City and Regional Planning, my certification from the American Institute of Certified Planners, and 7 years of experience with a county and regional government.  Outside reality, I am well-versed in videogame planning, being experienced with both the SimCity and RollercoastTycoon series, both of which have emphasis on placement location and people-moving.  I have been playing Minecraft since September 2009, and have been staff (moderator and admin) of the official MC forums since March of 2010.

Introduction

Recently, there have been some discussions in-game regarding laments on how Vetronia has grown, dissatisfaction on how it currently exists, and concerns on how it will grow in the future.  None of these arguments are strange to me, I hear them all the time, however Minecraft is not the real world.  Still, this thread is my solution to those discussions.

Several of the points that were made are as follows (with their IRL equivalent issue):

  • Vetropolis being underused and (while pretty) mostly vacant (Urban Blight)
  • Sprawl across the world map (Suburban Spawl)
  • Unused and abandoned structures/cities (Greyfields)
  • New players being confused and unsure of where to go (Wayfinding)
  • New and non-dotating players left at a disadvantage (Economic Disparity)

There are other issues, I'm sure, which I might touch on as I go.  

Caveats

Realize, before I get into this, that in all aspects the core principles of Minecraft must be preserved.  In no way should anything I say below be used as reasons to control, restrict, prohibit, or even "strongly encourage" users (new or otherwise) to build in certain places or build in a certain way (outside of Residence, of course).  Minecraft is about freedom, and that must not be harmed.

In addition, in some of these discussions I have heard rumblings of resetting the Vetronia map and "starting fresh."  This, to me, sounds a lot like "Springfield, Plan B" as noted here.  Basically, when the town is trashed the residents pick up the whole town and move 5-miles down the road.  This, as I have noted in the conversations leading up to this thread, is something I'm completely against.  You don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater."  None of the problems that Vetronia has, or is perceived to have, can't be fixed with the proper attention.

Lastly, remember that I am just one guy.  A true planning process is open and collaborative, requiring the input of everyone who is interested.  No person, despite their tenure in an city/server, has more of a say than anyone else.  With Residence, it becomes a bit of a different beast, and naturally areas within a Res are under full control of their owners.  But outside, in the public land, everyone needs to have a say.

Planning

Full education in City and Regional Planning requires much more room, time, and effort than I can go into here, but there are some highlights I'd like to start out with.  Namely, types of plans which might be effective for helping Vetronia.

  • Comprehensive Planning
    • Comp Plans are required of every municipality in the United States.  You can go on to any website and find them. Smaller cities have very simple and brief plans, while larger cities can have plans hundreds of pages thick.  These plans are "non-binding," which means that they are not laws unto themselves, but guidelines from which laws and codes can be made from.  There are eight elements required of a Comp Plan, and I will go through them and show some examples of how they can be applied to Vetronia:
      • Population - a look at who is joining.  More importantly, who is staying.  Differentiation between those who set up a Res and those who just come to watch a build-off or spleef.  Also includes demographic information, whether there is economic disparity among the players.
      • Economic Development - Where the shops are.  More importantly, where the shopping districts are.  Are people congregating where the shopping takes place?  Can they get to those areas easily?
      • Natural Resources - What areas are being preserved as natural?  The replanting rules and no-strip mining rules help, but what about areas that are flattened for cities and then abandoned?  Are there ways to encourage more environmentally-friendly development?
      • Cultural Resources - The locations of the arenas, the plazas, recreational facilities, etc.  Are they out of the way, or are they accessible to those who would wish to use them?
      • Community Facilities - The Visitor's Center, the Mall, the Bank, the Embassies, etc.  Are they in locations where people will find them?  Is the spawn of sufficient size, and do it and the Visitor's Center have enough information, and clear enough to help new users find what they need?
      • Housing - Where are plots available?  Few, if any , users will want to buy a pre-fabricated housing.  Minecraft is about building.  Are there sufficient areas where people want to build?  Are those areas accessible to other areas, via transit systems?  If a person wants to build near cities, are there places where he's allowed to do so?  If a person wants to build in the middle of nowhere, can he get there?
      • Land Use - How is the land being used?  Is it being used effectively?  Are abandoned or vacant areas being reclaimed and reused effectively?  Are there areas that should be incentivized for development?
      • Transportation - Where are the transit systems?  Are they effective?  Do they go where people want to go?  Or only into places where people have completely Res'd the whole area?  Are there opportunities to improve the connectivity between cities? Are roads in place to help new players find places to build?  Are the transportation hubs accessible to those who need to use them?  Is there a way to incentivize their use by those who really don't need them?
    • In addition, Comp Plans deal with:
      • Vision - Where Vetronia wants to go in the future.  What it wants to be.
      • Goals - Specific benchmarks for each element.  Example: "To make Vetropolis the greatest Minecraft city in existence."
      • Objectives - How the plan can achieve the Goals.  Example: "Increase the number of structures in Vetropolis by 10x."
      • Strategies - Detailed recommendations on how to achieve the Goals and Objectives.  Example: "Open up additional areas for purchase within Vetropolis for player projects."
  • "SWOT" Analysis
    • A detailed look at the functioning of a community.  Very useful when determining the potential benefits and impacts of a project
      • Strengths - Vetropolis, Portal Ships, 10k x 10k world map, Mature user base, etc.
      • Weaknesses - Minecraft isn't society-friendly, Spread out cities, Confusing to new members, Numerous abandoned areas, etc.
      • Opportunities - Lots of unused areas to build in, players willing to solve problems, a good base of active cities to start from
      • Threats - Griefers, Increasing numbers of abandoned areas, larger number of disconnected cities
    • Due to the nature of Minecraft, it may not always be possible to improve upon the positives or mitigate the negatives, but it's important to identify what they are, and what might be done about them.
  • Zoning Regulations and Building Codes
    • For Residenced areas, it is possible through good planning and documentation to allow for users to have greater freedom with their buildings, while maintaining the look and feel of the city.  These ARE laws, those who agree to build by them are subject to penalties if they are violated.  
    • Some of the things these codes (set by each Res'd City) could control would be
      • Types of Materials used
      • Roof type and shape
      • Landscaping
      • Requirement for Interior Detail.
      • Ingress/Egress requirements (how to access the property)
    • These should not be applicable outside Res'd areas in any way.
  • Mapping and Future Land Use
    • A visual collaboration on the future of Vetronia, most notably in Vetropolis.  Identification of additional districts, transportation routes (streets, minecart lines, portal ship/airship docks, etc.), municipal features, civic areas, etc., all mapped out to allow Meat, Frell, and the rest of the staff to 1) construct the new areas, and 2) subzone plots so that members can buy and build on them.  As with IRL cities, those plots would be subject to the highest of prices and the strictest of regulation, depending on what the owner wants to see.

Work Session

I don't want to overwhelm you all too much, so I won't go deeper into planning theory at this point.  Most of it is irrelevant, since Minecraft =/= Reality.  I do have some ideas to put out there to try and solve some of the issues identified at the top of this post, and I will attempt to tie it back into the above planning concepts I DO consider to be relevant.

  • Vetropolis being underused and (while pretty) mostly vacant (Urban Blight)
    • Discourse: Too much of Vetropolis is just unnecessary.  While it looks good, and serves as a nice spawn, there are really only a few highly-used areas.  The spawn, the free-to-take/leave chest, the mall, and the harbor.  How often are the Embassies visited?  The stand-alone shops?  The University?  City Hall?
    • Proposed Goal: To make Vetropolis a vibrant and useful city
      • Possible Objective: Get people passing through the city more frequently
        • Possible Strategy: Remove non-party teleporting from all but staff, so that the Vetropolis as a transportation hub becomes more widely utilized.
        • Possible Strategy: Improve the transit systems to encourage more convenient visits
      • Possible Objective: Improve everyday activity within the city
        • Possible Strategy: Increase the number of districts in Vetropolis, both for commercial and residential uses, and provide lots for sale
        • Possible Strategy: Encourage public works projects to enhance beautification and open space of the city.  People love hanging around pleasant areas.
        • Possible Strategy: Include a "Freebuild District," for unrestricted, griefing-allowed building.  A Minecraft "playground," if you will.  Materials not provided.
        • Possible Strategy: A "Mini-Hunger Games" Arena, specifically sized for in-city.
      • Possible Objective: To increase population within the city
        • Possible Strategy: Give all new members, upon request, a free apartment within Vetropolis, complete with bed and protected chest.  Valid for 1 week only, while they figure out where they will live.
        • Possible Strategy: Create a list of Residents, continuing, proven members, and provide them with one small subzone for free.
  • Sprawl across the world map (Suburban Spawl)
    • Discourse: This can be a tricky issue, even IRL, to stop sprawl.  Without regulating where people build, which wouldn't be good, the best course is to provide encouragements for not spawling.
    • Proposed Goal: To encourage players to build in or close to existing cities
      • Possible Objective: Make access to portal ships a little easier.  Currently most ships are contained completely within a city, surrounded by Res'd areas which cannot be built on.  Thus, players are forced further out into the wild, with the hope of creating their own ship someday.
        • Possible Strategy: Encourage the placement of city harbors and portal ships to be located so that it is easy for travelers to enter the wilds just outside the city, without encroaching on it.
        • Possible Strategy: Fund, through communal donations or server resources, one or more "unbound" Waystation portal ships which will dump players into wild areas, unowned by a city.  Much like the Outer Reaches portals.  Server-owned Res at the portal site would provide minimal infrastructure to get a player started.
        • Possible Strategy: Wayfinding to and from portal ships, so that players can find areas to build easier.
      • Possible Objective: Replace or reuse old structures.  (See Below)
      • Possible Objective: Improve the effectiveness of cities as places that people will want to live in.  With the possibilities of Minecraft, a 15x15 lot isn't very appealing to new players, until they've established their own homes elsewhere.
        • Possible Strategy: Encourage city owners to develop free proto-districts outside their Res border to entice new players to build there.
        • Possible Strategy: Discourage the use of flat, small-lot districts within cities on grids.  They're not very appealing.
    • Proposed Goal: To keep cities that build further out from becoming too discontiguous from the society
      • Possible Objective: Improve transportation options between cities.
        • Possible Strategy: Require that a "city" must have lots available for sale or sufficient access to free areas before they can qualify for a major portal ship. Private portal ships must be minor, so as to not attract attention.
        • Possible Strategy: Connect all cities on the map with both roads and minecart rail lines.
      • Possible Objective: Provide adequate information about each active city so that players can be informed about the areas of Vetronia
        • Possible Strategy: Require all cities to create and maintain a page on the VeteranCraft wiki highlighting the location, features, and available building opportunities.
        • Possible Strategy: Improve and maintain wayfinding so that all players can find their way to the various destinations
        • Possible Strategy: Create a series of thematic maps to inform and enlighten the players on the makeup of Vetronia
      • Possible Objective: Make the cities more inviting to newcomers, visitors, and prospective landowners
        • Possible Strategy: Prohibit the general use of Move and Use flags within the city, exempting sensitive subzones, of course.
        • Encourage proper signage and wayfinding throughout the city
  • Unused and abandoned structures/cities (Greyfields)
    • Discourse:  The rules state that after 30 days of not being signed on, a players Res and structures will be removed.  However this doesn't seem to happen, at least not all the time.  Thus the map is starting to feel cluttered in some places by abandoned buildings.  There are also buildings by current players that are unused and taking up valuable space for no real reason.  These locations can lead to the map feeling "messy."
    • Proposed Goal: To clean up Vetronia
      • Possible Objective: To improve the removal of old structures and reuse the land.
        • Possible Strategy: Sign the land as available for rehabilitation and reuse, and allow the applicant to take over ownership of the Res, free of normal Res charge, providing they remove the existing structure or rehabilitate it for their own purposes.
        • Possible Strategy: Declare a Res and structure to be derelict, and free to anyone for use of materials as needed.  Final cleanup, if needed, can be done or assigned by staff. 
      • Possible Objective: To improve and streamline non-Res'd areas in need
        • Possible Strategy: Discuss with active users, or staff, the possibility of relocating roads, features, or facilities that might not work as intended, or might work better if designed differently.
        • Possible Strategy: Inverse Terraforming - to rebuild natural areas that had been cleared and/or flattened for cities or projects.  Staff-approved, of course.
    • Proposed Goal: To keep Vetronia clean
      • Possible Objective: To increase community involvement with construction projects.
        • Possible Strategy: Incentivize neighboring players to keep in contact with players, and if a structure is abandoned, to speak with them and get them to remove said structure [which I think is in the rules...]
        • Possible Strategy: Vetronia Recycling Program - with staff approval, of course, allow players who clean up after recently abandoned structures to keep the materials they get from the cleanup.
  • New players being confused and unsure of where to go (Wayfinding)
    • Discourse: It IS a big map, and Vetropolis is a relatively big island which cannot be built on.  There are two main questions new players ask: "Where can I build?" and "How do I Spleef?"
    • Proposed Goal: Streamline the process for indoctrinating new players into VeteranCraft and Vetronia.
      • Possible Objective: To quickly get new players up to speed
        • Possible Strategy: Develop a Starter's Guide for the wiki that can inform the new player faster and better than the Visitor's Center can.
        • Possible Strategy: Revamp the spawn and the signs therein to be crystal-clear and informative.  1) Visit the Starter's Guide.  2) Visit the Website/Wiki.  3)"If you steal or grief, we WILL catch you and ban you."  4) Read the full rules, ignorance not an excuse.  5) Explore: Ships, Boats, Minecarts, LiveMap.  6) Build: Res, McMMO, iConomy.  7) Play: How to join Spleef, PvP, Hunger Games.  8) READ THE RULES.
      • Possible Objective: To guide new players to where they want to go.
        • Possible Strategy: Improved Vetropolis Wayfinding.  Street names, guideposts, map walls, etc.
        • Possible Strategy: Vetropolis City Guide on the wiki, full of detailed maps and information on shops, portal ships, etc.
        • Possible Strategy: Provide more information at the Harbor and Airport about the locations the ships go to. [Several ships in the harbor don't have label signs, I think]
      • Possible Objective: Provide plenty of places for new members to build, free, if possible, if they want to build there. (See above)
    • Proposed Goal: Incentivize the integration of new players into Vetronian society
      • Possible Objective: Get the players to want to participate in iConomy and Residence
        • Possible Strategy: Set achievements for new players which result in Shilling payouts (small), such as buying from a store, selling to a store, etc.
        • Possible Strategies: See above, entice players to assume authority over an abandoned Res, free of charge.
      • Possible Objective: Get the players to participate in community projects
        • Possible Strategy:  Establish a "new worker" payout for new players who want to help existing members with their projects.
        • Possible Strategy:  Incentivize the player's work by providing subzones at reduced or free charge for areas they have done work in.
  • New and non-dotating players left at a disadvantage (Economic Disparity)
    • Discourse: It has been noted by some, although I'm not sure to what extent it's true, that new members are squeezed and pressured out of the economy.  Not by being new and not having a chance to work for shills, but because the economy is skewed by the salaries and abilities of the donating players.
    • Proposed Goal:  To rebalance the economy by adjusting the benefits of donators.
      • Possible Objective:  To bring higher level donators back into the economy.  As it is, the two highest donator levels are almost removed from the everyday economy.
        • Possible Strategy: Limit /res tp command, so portal ships are utilized
        • Possible Strategy: Limit /spa command, so material use is more in line with non-donators
        • Possible Strategy: Limit /god command, so armor and food play a part again
      • Possible Objective:  Encourage greater collaboration among donators and non-donators.  Right now, the salaries of the higher levels are so high that they really never have to sell anything, and with /god they are buying a lot less.  Work and Res aside there are large disparities on the upper salaries.
        • Possible Strategy: Reduce the salary of the Bishop to 10k, the Ambassador to 18k and the Viceroy to 40k.  Variable, of course.
        • Possible Strategy:  Develop other non-skewing perks for donators to keep donations to the server high
    • Proposed Goal: To develop the pool of donators in a sustainable manner so as to not disparage non-donators
      • Possible Objective: To provide a taste to encourage players to donate
        • Possible Strategy: "Gift" temporary Knight ranks as rewards for service to the Server.

Anyways, that's I've got for now.  I know it's a lot, but I hope it was good reading.  Remember, all of these are just suggestions, and most of them unformed and not very good.  They're just ideas to think about and talk about, and maybe see if anything comes from them.  Enjoy!

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
July 2, 2012
4:42 pm
terrorisly
Colorado
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I've been waiting for this post! It'll be much easier for me to give my input in post form anyway rather than that crazy discussion yesterday in party chat. Maybe it's my infatuation with writing, but I love to express myself lengthily rather than briefly.

I believe you have a great start here, but there are a few things with which I don't agree.

Let's start with what I like most about your ideas: It doesn't involve a group of "elite" people controlling things. I believe Minecraft, and a server especially, should not be controlled in any way by a group of people other than rule enforcement from staff. I don't care if you don't like how my structures look, or think my buildings are ugly. Some sort of group telling me where to build is unacceptable. I've been on a server where I was encouraged (almost forced, it felt) to build in one certain location rather than find where I wanted to go on my own. My house ended up not being my own in a sense. There was almost always somebody in it. It was griefed almost every day, even by the admin of the server himself. I had no control over it. I didn't get to chose with whom I lived as other new people were encouraged to build around the place where I was encouraged to build. Some people I liked, others I didn't. It became chaotic and I did not enjoy it. I may not be a good example because I'm reclusive in nature, but my experience with being encouraged to build in one certain spot did not end well. I am also aware of the residence plugin that the server I'm talking about lacked, but even if I locked the doors to my house with LWC, people kept finding ways to get in and tried extra hard to do so, making my privacy attempts moot. I would rather willingly join a community, or live by myself in the wild.

On the sprawl issue, I think sprawl itself is good in the beginning and establishment of a city in Minecraft, as it is better to have cities, especially ones with portal ship access, farther away from each other as to span the map more and give players more variety regarding places to build. The portal ship issue is one I can't control myself; the lake where my ship sits is the only place I could have it near my island, but I think I've done a good job of establishing a path that can be followed to an inn with free food (in case a wandering player is in need) and further leading to the bridge where one can freely exit my island to open land. There are abandoned structures a little ways out from my island, but I'm willing to find and take those down if needed to free land for other newcomers. I'm also willing to help renovate the land if needed. I too am completely against a new map, even if I could ask for my stuff to be copied over. That's just not the right solution with an established map. I have the perfect area with which to work, and I refuse to spend the time trying to find another perfect area because I shouldn't have to do so.

I do love the idea of giving incentives to let players renovate and take over abandoned areas. As said by myself and others before, a place on the forums to report suspected abandoned areas for inspection BY STAFF and then turning them over for use after materials the armory might need, etc. are harvested is a great idea to do this. The incentives could include using the materials staff may not want and having an area that isn't completely new or restricted with which to work, or just an incentive to clear an ugly looking area. That way, nobody's telling one where to build, and encourages the finding and destruction of the things "ruining the map." EDIT: Looks like a section for this very thing has just been added to the forums. Awesome.

Your wayfinding solutions are ones I'd definitely like to see implemented one day, especially for Vetropolis. Wiki guides seem like the best solution, and will also generate more traffic to the website. I think the website should be utilized as much as possible, and we should definitely find ways to connect the server and website more. I especially think the forum area should be better used to contract newcomers to jobs with new worker payouts, etc. Higher level donators could utilize this to help bolster the economy and keep their shillings flowing within the economy more easily. I see regular members all the time asking in game if there are jobs for them to do; a better utilized bulletin within the forums or even city pages on the wiki could help the economy.

Anyways, I'll get to some of the issues of some of your solutions. I absolutely disagree with removing /ptp and /tp rights from donators. That was one of my incentives to donate to the server, and I feel like I can better help people with those teleporting rights. It's easier for me to provide materials to people asking when I can just /tp to them rather than trying to walk all the way to them. I wouldn't mind if /res tp were removed, however. I don't think it's really necessary to have to use it, and have seen a donator abuse it before when I was trying to keep him away from my house at the time. Also, with the ability to set multiple homes for donors, /res tp seems a little... cheap in the traveling sense. Why not have a donator travel to where they want to go and set a home if it's important enough rather than just use /res tp?

As for limiting /god and /spa, I don't agree with those points either. /spa degrades pickaxes, which requires the use of iron and diamonds to repair them. This opens donor market for those materials, where a donor can pump their shillings into the economy once more. It may be a small part, but it's still viable. As for myself and /god, this is more of a personal issue. I'm not one to play Minecraft to have to deal with food just for doing what I do. Hunger is one feature of Minecraft that I don't like. When I was just dealing with monsters, I was fine surviving and going about my business, but with hunger added, it made me less willing to play as I usually do. I don't feel like I should have to change my strategies around a feature I do not like. /god (and to a limited extent, /heal) have helped me begin playing the way I want to again, rather than being subjected to hunger. To limit my use of /god would greatly hinder the way I want to play, and also undermine part of the reason I donated. Maybe I'd be better off on a creative server, but I like the feel of hostile mobs around, repairing creeper damage (part of the reason my island will never be fully residenced), and having to collect my materials to build. I don't think donators should be punished in the sudden limiting or removal of perks. These perks to me are incentives. I completely understand not having the money to donate, and agree that there should be better ways to include new players within the economy, but I don't know if limiting donator commands is the way to help them.

I wouldn't mind a salary decrease for the donor ranks even if I do like getting my monthly salary and beholding my shillings. Still, I don't see myself ever actively participating in the economy even if I weren't a donator as shillings don't mean much to me. I'm not trying to build a huge city or flourish some sort of empire, so shillings don't have much use to me. Maybe if there were more uses for shillings than residence and shops? I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but more use for shillings could definitely help give more incentives for donating, even for lower salaries.

Sorry for the walls of text, but I think I have some good personal experiences and points to contribute. Thanks again for this post, Light!

<3
July 9, 2012
10:04 am
LightWarriorK
Aelfheim, Arda
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Thanks for the reply, isly!

I left a week to maybe get a few more responses before replying, and I've heard some thoughts on this in-game and via PM. I know it's a daunting topic, and pretty esoteric for Minecraft.

Still, I'll start with replying to isly's great comments:

terrorisly said
I've been waiting for this post! It'll be much easier for me to give my input in post form anyway rather than that crazy discussion yesterday in party chat. Maybe it's my infatuation with writing, but I love to express myself lengthily rather than briefly.

I believe you have a great start here, but there are a few things with which I don't agree.

Thanks!  And never, ever, feel like disagreeing is a bad thing.  Disagreements are great for any collaborative process.

Let's start with what I like most about your ideas: It doesn't involve a group of "elite" people controlling things. I believe Minecraft, and a server especially, should not be controlled in any way by a group of people other than rule enforcement from staff. I don't care if you don't like how my structures look, or think my buildings are ugly. Some sort of group telling me where to build is unacceptable. I've been on a server where I was encouraged (almost forced, it felt) to build in one certain location rather than find where I wanted to go on my own. My house ended up not being my own in a sense. There was almost always somebody in it. It was griefed almost every day, even by the admin of the server himself. I had no control over it. I didn't get to chose with whom I lived as other new people were encouraged to build around the place where I was encouraged to build. Some people I liked, others I didn't. It became chaotic and I did not enjoy it. I may not be a good example because I'm reclusive in nature, but my experience with being encouraged to build in one certain spot did not end well. I am also aware of the residence plugin that the server I'm talking about lacked, but even if I locked the doors to my house with LWC, people kept finding ways to get in and tried extra hard to do so, making my privacy attempts moot. I would rather willingly join a community, or live by myself in the wild.

I definitely agree.  The nature of Minecraft would be destroyed, and I'm sure the server would suffer, if  there were controls and bullying to get people to build where and what others wanted.  It's a tricky issue for the server, especially when we want to have it look good everywhere.  It just may not be possible to get to that point.  The MVPP thread has some good ideas about it, though, and good planning can definitely help with that.

On the sprawl issue, I think sprawl itself is good in the beginning and establishment of a city in Minecraft, as it is better to have cities, especially ones with portal ship access, farther away from each other as to span the map more and give players more variety regarding places to build.

It's true, sprawl as a form of establishment is good.  Heck, I'm "guilty" of that myself.  Highmoor is very remote.  Sprawl isn't as much of an issue in Minecraft because there is no infrastructure like roads and sewer that are stressed by it.  However it does make for a less-cohesive society.  Making it more cohesive and getting people to build closer to the existing cities while 1) allowing those players to build how and what they want, 2) keeping the players they're building close to happy, and 3) having it all look good....that's the trick.  Ideally some of that can be resolved through enticements and proper pre-planning, but with Minecraft, "setting up" sites for people to build in doesn't really work.  Not for new players, at least.

The portal ship issue is one I can't control myself; the lake where my ship sits is the only place I could have it near my island, but I think I've done a good job of establishing a path that can be followed to an inn with free food (in case a wandering player is in need) and further leading to the bridge where one can freely exit my island to open land.

Yes, in some cases getting the Portal Ships to easily access free land is tough.  Okarim is in the same situation with Cape Town.  I think as long as an effort is made, it will be alright, though.  

There are abandoned structures a little ways out from my island, but I'm willing to find and take those down if needed to free land for other newcomers. I'm also willing to help renovate the land if needed.

That will help a lot.  Another thing, and something that I plan to do, is to start roads into those areas.  I'm actually going to be setting up City Gates to Highmoor, and use one of my Residences to Res some Roads leading out of Highmoor.  So the roads themselves will never be griefed, they become usable infratructure.

An potential example of this is the new town growing north of Avalon.  As you can see in the pic below, some effort has been made to put roads through the area.  However it does look very haphazard incomplete.  The red circle is where the path just doesn't exist (creeper explosion?) and the red rectangle is where RePaperClip's building goes right through where the path would go.

Instead, would it not be better to work with Avalon and the residents to develop some sort of road system through the area?  Something that would 1) look better, not just gravel paths, 2) establish the town, 3) not be random, and 4) allow for future inhabitants to build off of the network?

This town has a LOT of potential, but it does need some communal care.  This might include talking with some players to get them to move a structure or Res.  This happens all the time IRL.  

I too am completely against a new map, even if I could ask for my stuff to be copied over. That's just not the right solution with an established map. I have the perfect area with which to work, and I refuse to spend the time trying to find another perfect area because I shouldn't have to do so.

Exactly, there's just no need for it.  There are still SO many virgin areas in Vetronia, and the used areas....well if they don't look good right now, then work to fix it.  But the parts that need work are in the minority, I think.

I do love the idea of giving incentives to let players renovate and take over abandoned areas. As said by myself and others before, a place on the forums to report suspected abandoned areas for inspection BY STAFF and then turning them over for use after materials the armory might need, etc. are harvested is a great idea to do this. The incentives could include using the materials staff may not want and having an area that isn't completely new or restricted with which to work, or just an incentive to clear an ugly looking area. That way, nobody's telling one where to build, and encourages the finding and destruction of the things "ruining the map." EDIT: Looks like a section for this very thing has just been added to the forums. Awesome.

Yes, I really hope that section gets used.  There is enough out there that can be recycled that it could be a big benefit.

Your wayfinding solutions are ones I'd definitely like to see implemented one day, especially for Vetropolis. Wiki guides seem like the best solution, and will also generate more traffic to the website. I think the website should be utilized as much as possible, and we should definitely find ways to connect the server and website more.

You know, I wonder if there is a mod that turns signs into in-game hyperlinks, similar to how they can be warps.  That would be a tremendous help in getting players to visit the wiki and the forums.  I'll take a look at some plugins and make a suggestion about it if I find a good one for frelling to look at.

I especially think the forum area should be better used to contract newcomers to jobs with new worker payouts, etc. Higher level donators could utilize this to help bolster the economy and keep their shillings flowing within the economy more easily. I see regular members all the time asking in game if there are jobs for them to do; a better utilized bulletin within the forums or even city pages on the wiki could help the economy.

That's a good idea as well.  It would be perfect for the marketplace subforum.

Anyways, I'll get to some of the issues of some of your solutions. I absolutely disagree with removing /ptp and /tp rights from donators. That was one of my incentives to donate to the server, and I feel like I can better help people with those teleporting rights. It's easier for me to provide materials to people asking when I can just /tp to them rather than trying to walk all the way to them. I wouldn't mind if /res tp were removed, however. I don't think it's really necessary to have to use it, and have seen a donator abuse it before when I was trying to keep him away from my house at the time. Also, with the ability to set multiple homes for donors, /res tp seems a little... cheap in the traveling sense. Why not have a donator travel to where they want to go and set a home if it's important enough rather than just use /res tp?

Well, I think I said "remove non-party teleporting," so definitely leave /ptp in place.  And /tp does have its uses, although I personally disagree with its use for non-staff.  I was mainly talking about /res tp.  Personally, I plan on disabling /res tp for Highmoor once I get a portal ship.  I just think that between all the /homes that are allowed and the donator options for teleporting, the portal ships mainly become worthless once a player has had enough time to set up.  I, for one, would almost rather set the non-portal ship teleport cooldown to 5 minutes or even more.

As an example, think about how many times you use your portal ship to go back and forth between spawn?  Or do you just use a /home?  If you're not using the ship, why have it?  Is it just so that new players can use it to visit?  Or to find a place near your ship to build?  Once they start building and set a /home, would they still use the ship?  The whole question on teleporting, even with donors, is one of effective use of existing transportation resources.

As for limiting /god and /spa, I don't agree with those points either. /spa degrades pickaxes, which requires the use of iron and diamonds to repair them. This opens donor market for those materials, where a donor can pump their shillings into the economy once more.It may be a small part, but it's still viable. 

Ahhh, you know, I had /spa wrong.  I thought it was unlimited durability, for some reason.  Nevermind my /spa suggestion, then. Smile

As for myself and /god, this is more of a personal issue. I'm not one to play Minecraft to have to deal with food just for doing what I do. Hunger is one feature of Minecraft that I don't like. When I was just dealing with monsters, I was fine surviving and going about my business, but with hunger added, it made me less willing to play as I usually do. I don't feel like I should have to change my strategies around a feature I do not like. /god (and to a limited extent, /heal) have helped me begin playing the way I want to again, rather than being subjected to hunger. To limit my use of /god would greatly hinder the way I want to play, and also undermine part of the reason I donated. Maybe I'd be better off on a creative server, but I like the feel of hostile mobs around, repairing creeper damage (part of the reason my island will never be fully residenced), and having to collect my materials to build. I don't think donators should be punished in the sudden limiting or removal of perks. These perks to me are incentives. I completely understand not having the money to donate, and agree that there should be better ways to include new players within the economy, but I don't know if limiting donator commands is the way to help them.

That's understandable, I could argue about the presence of /god on a legit server.  It's one that I could definitely do without, but that's also personal to me.  I love the danger and hunger aspect of Minecraft, and think it gives a whole world of depth to the game.  But I do understand what you're saying, and I agree that play styles shouldn't be hindered.  While I wouldn't call it punishing to remove something that other's don't have, I realize that it would be a shock not to have it anymore.

I wouldn't mind a salary decrease for the donor ranks even if I do like getting my monthly salary and beholding my shillings. Still, I don't see myself ever actively participating in the economy even if I weren't a donator as shillings don't mean much to me. I'm not trying to build a huge city or flourish some sort of empire, so shillings don't have much use to me. Maybe if there were more uses for shillings than residence and shops? I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but more use for shillings could definitely help give more incentives for donating, even for lower salaries.

The MVPP thread seems to be doing a good job of getting some things started, and will hopefully be a good resource.  One of the things that might be helpful is a "Projects in need of Donations" thread eventually.  There are so many resources for newbies on how they can earn shillings, but there aren't any resources on how to spend those shillings aside from Res and shopping.  For most, I would expect, it's not really an issue, as their Res demands always outstrip their funds.  I myself still need about 120k shillings before I have Highmoor fully Res'd, and that's not including the extra area I'll need for my docks, ships, and lighthouse.

Anyways, a good post that highlights what opportunities there are for those with adequate shillings would probably be very helpful.  There are likely a lot of opportunities for you, isly, outside of Res and shopping, if you wanted them.  Or there should be, and may be in the near future.  That's one of the things that planning can help with, is identifying those opportunities.

Sorry for the walls of text, but I think I have some good personal experiences and points to contribute. Thanks again for this post, Light!

You did, isly, and thanks again for your post!

 

One new bit, since this thread was posted I have been approached by a few players for help in "master planning" their cities.  I was thinking it would be beneficial to have a few planning resources in-game.  Next time I'm on [tonight], I will look, and then discuss with Meat about setting up a Planning Department in Vetropolis, either in City Hall or a standalone structure.

I'll also be establishing, for the sake of fairness and transparency, a "shop" of sorts.  Not one that sells products, but rather services.  Planning Firms are all around the world, and serve a variety of purposes.  I'll be thinking about a menu of services that I could provide.  As an example, based upon the offers I've had, for 10k shillings I would work with the city owner to develop a plan map using the DynMap, complete with the best possible locations for the features they want to include, road networks, and districts.  Smaller efforts would be cheaper, of course, and larger ones more expensive.  But if anyone is interested in this service, once I have a better idea of what I can (and want to) do, I'll make a thread in the "Plug Your Shop" subforum.

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
July 9, 2012
11:19 am
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LightWarriorK said

I'll also be establishing, for the sake of fairness and transparency, a "shop" of sorts.  Not one that sells products, but rather services.  Planning Firms are all around the world, and serve a variety of purposes.  I'll be thinking about a menu of services that I could provide.  As an example, based upon the offers I've had, for 10k shillings I would work with the city owner to develop a plan map using the DynMap, complete with the best possible locations for the features they want to include, road networks, and districts.  Smaller efforts would be cheaper, of course, and larger ones more expensive.  But if anyone is interested in this service, once I have a better idea of what I can (and want to) do, I'll make a thread in the "Plug Your Shop" subforum.

This would be awesome.  I love the idea of a shop for services.  It could at least point people to the proper place on the forums to make a request with details.  Other skilled people could setup service-related shops as well - I can think of a few people off the top of my head.  Very cool!

Life is what happens while we are busy making plans
August 8, 2012
7:55 pm
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I don't know why I didn't see all the posts in this thread, but shame on me. Must have been a bug in the simplepress forum software. Anyways..

I will look, and then discuss with Meat about setting up a Planning Department in Vetropolis, either in City Hall or a standalone structure.

I am totally cool with dedicating a plot in the reclaimed land section of Vetropolis for this. As well as a possible services mall type thingy. (Like my technical terminology?)

A place where, like shops, people can lease a plot (within a building like merchant hall) and have signs (or books) that sell their services rather than items.

Services in demand just that I can think of in addition to you selling planning services:

  • Land clearing
  • Complicated shape building: spheres, cones, pyramids
  • Building designing
  • Boat/ship designing

I wonder how books could be integrated into this.

BTW, do books have clickable links? If not, I'm sure a plugin will soon come, which would be great for info purposes. Books could essentially become give-away brochures and things for people's promotional materials for their cites, shops, etc.

Founder and owner of VeteranCraft. "He who says he can, and he who says he can't, are both usually right." -Confucious
August 8, 2012
8:02 pm
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About books, meat: While normally you can only have 256 characters per page (even though they could fit way more) and 50 pages per book, these restrictions only apply on writing them client-side. You can adjust them on the server's side to bypass the restrictions, such as the character-limit, for neater books.

August 9, 2012
9:21 am
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I just noticed... in one of those images you've a house with a red rectangle around it, and you have marked it as a problem structure.

That was the first house in LeFay village. 

Anthony Hughes

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August 9, 2012
10:17 am
LightWarriorK
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I'll have to do this all in pieces today, work isn't cooperating with my desire to play around.  Tony's is easiest, so he's first:

Emulated said
I just noticed... in one of those images you've a house with a red rectangle around it, and you have marked it as a problem structure.

That was the first house in LeFay village. 

Anthony Hughes

It wasn't so much of a "problem structure."  I'm just using it as an example, if there was a plan in place for the village, the paths could have worked around it better.  "Reactive Planning," meaning going back and addressing issues like "there's not a good road from Avalon through LeFay" would probably result in some changes that not everyone would like.

However "Proactive Planning," usually covered in Long-Range Planning, identifies where infrastructure would be most appropriate and makes sure the land is held.  I'm sure when LeFay started it wasn't a concern, and it may not even be a concern now, but when looking ahead to where to build it does come in handy.  That first building isn't the "problem," even though it's now in the way, but the problem is that when the road was built it wasn't built in a way that connected well with Avalon, and now it frankly looks like a mess.

As I mentioned above, this sort of stuff is less of an issue with Minecraft, since there are not cars, or commute, or congestion.  IF there were, I can bet that building would be demolished by now.  Minecraft is all about the look of it.

Of course, if you look at the area now....http://play.veterancraft.net:2.....0138299768

The issue seems mostly fixed.Smile

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
August 9, 2012
11:54 am
Nexus
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LightWarriorK said
 

    • Proposed Goal: To develop the pool of donators in a sustainable manner so as to not disparage non-donators
      • Possible Objective: To provide a taste to encourage players to donate
        • Possible Strategy: "Gift" temporary Knight ranks as rewards for service to the Server.

With the gift thing, I say that is a must have for the server, I mean if you do something for the community as a whole I say you deserve it.

"Don't worry. You won't be completely alone. You've got me" ~Nexus
August 9, 2012
12:20 pm
LightWarriorK
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meatbawllz said
I don't know why I didn't see all the posts in this thread, but shame on me. Must have been a bug in the simplepress forum software. Anyways..

I will look, and then discuss with Meat about setting up a Planning Department in Vetropolis, either in City Hall or a standalone structure.

I am totally cool with dedicating a plot in the reclaimed land section of Vetropolis for this. As well as a possible services mall type thingy. (Like my technical terminology?)

A plot would certainly work, but I'm not sure if that much is needed.  If so, it would be a smallish building, no bigger than the Hospital I'm sure.  I'd be perfectly happy if a suite was built into City Hall, though, but that's a discussion for another time.

A place where, like shops, people can lease a plot (within a building like merchant hall) and have signs (or books) that sell their services rather than items.

Services in demand just that I can think of in addition to you selling planning services:

  • Land clearing
  • Complicated shape building: spheres, cones, pyramids
  • Building designing
  • Boat/ship designing
Absolutely, that would be a great venue.  Maybe also Pherian's map, skin, and portrait shop?

I wonder how books could be integrated into this.

BTW, do books have clickable links? If not, I'm sure a plugin will soon come, which would be great for info purposes. Books could essentially become give-away brochures and things for people's promotional materials for their cites, shops, etc.

I don't know if they have clickable links, and I don't think they can be copied easily as yet.  Written books are still a very early feature, and I'm sure they'll be improved on either through mods or future updates.  I'm wondering, though, if this pluggin might not be the best way to do large amounts of text for now, placing signs near where bookshelves are, and when clicked on will provide a chat link leading to the wiki, or a Google Doc with a story or some such.  Depending on the permissions given for creating such signs, it could be a good substitute until books get up to speed.

 

Ok, I'm going to work on the map idea for Vetropolis, and I'll edit it back in here, or post if someone responds after me.

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
August 9, 2012
1:21 pm
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Hopefully intelligent plugin developers will capitalize on the lack of written book plugins early on, and can set the standard for others to improve on. We're working on internet time, so I can't imagine it being too many weeks after we upgrade that something acceptable comes along.

Anthony Hughes

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August 9, 2012
2:54 pm
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One would hope, Tony.  I'll keep checking the MCF and Bukkit sites for them.

Ok, I've done a little bit of City Planning for Vetropolis, as much as I can do without input.  Most planning has to be based on assumptions, until those are otherwise qualified, so after thinking about it at length, I came up with these:

  • Vetropolis wants to grow.  There is need for additional plots, and a desire on the part of meat and the staff to provide them.
    • Civics: Community buildings such as City Hall, the Arenas, and the Bank
    • Commercial: Shops, Malls, Services
    • Residential: Townhomes, apartments, etc.
    • Industrial: Ports, etc.
  • Room on the island is limited, so the options are as well:
    • Density: Build up, build big
    • Reclaimation: Filling in ocean
    • Conversion of natural areas
    • Limit what is built, through restrictions (one shop per city/player) and/or higher costs (supply and demand)
  • The city is dependent on a grid-like network of roads to maintain its style.
  • The forest south of the river and the Graveyard swamp are to be kept natural as much as possible.

To that end, I have come up with an initial proposal for project areas and proposed roads, based upon the Reclamation  thread and what seems to make sense.  Keep in mind that this is only a proposal and everything is subject to change.

Image Enlarger

The Northern Reclamation Area and the River Project have been identified elsewhere, so I'll briefly talk about the others:

  • West Coast Development: Building around the western side of the island, encircling the small mountain area and heading out to the peninsula.  This might be appropriate for some ocean reclamation, but it also might be held as nature preserve.
  • Airship Port Environs: Serves two purposes.  1) It formalizes the connection between the port and the rest of the city, and 2) it allows for some additional development south of the river that won't encroach on the Nature Preserve
  • Vetropolis Nature Preserve: A formalized (ideally fenced) area to remain virgin.  The size can be variable, but it shouldn't impede on the roads continuing from across the river.
  • Graveyard Reserve: Given the volume of bannings, the graveyard will only grow.  If it were more centrally located, it might make sense to restrict it further and place future graves in mausoleums only, but being adjacent to the Nature Preserve it acts as an extension of the virgin area.

Internal Plans for each area should be done separately so they can get more specific, sort of how meat is planning the River Project.  And additional areas are always an option, if appropriate.

As for the proposed roads, there are a few guidelines that is good practice when using a grid system:

  • Never dead-end streets if you can help it.  Elbow them and merge into other streets
  • If it is possible that a road might be continued at some future time, prohibit building at the end of the street, or better yet create a "stub out" of the extension of the future road (as shown in the NRA)
  • If it's an area where people will cut through, either make a road to service them, or place a wall to prohibit them.  
  • A proper grid surrounds a block with roads on all sides.

I could have gotten into much more anal detail with the roads, but the map shows the general idea.

Lastly, Redevelopment:  Are there buildings or areas that need to be rehabilitated or improved?  The only one I can definitely say right now fits in this category is the Rail Station, but if there are buildings and areas that are underused and anyone has ideas on how they could me made more useful, that can only help the city.

 

As always, a Planning process is only as good as the input received on it, so please let me know what you all think!  I can change anything!  And of course, this is just discussion.  Even Plans IRL are not legally binding, they're ignored and altered all the time.  The main thing is to think ahead.Smile

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
August 9, 2012
3:41 pm
Spentxlr8tion
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@Light Please, by all means feel free to screw up that part of Le Fay as much as you want xD

August 9, 2012
4:35 pm
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Spentxlr8tion said

@Light Please, by all means feel free to screw up that part of Le Fay as much as you want xD

Watch it, ryan hom is located over there (the dirt hut)!

I have awesome shoulders.
August 10, 2012
9:01 am
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There are a few roads I would remove, but all in all, extremely well for not knowing what I've already had in my head :)

What I would like to do is determine a full list of buildings pre-destined to be built, and plan where they'd go, then plan the city blocks/streets accordingly around them. Then maybe break it into phases, so while the section closest to the island is being completed, it can be built upon and excavators can continue filling in the next phase.

When I get some time I will start thinking it out on the Vetropolis city thread.

BTW Light, the National Archives plot is graded and ready for construction.

Founder and owner of VeteranCraft. "He who says he can, and he who says he can't, are both usually right." -Confucious
August 10, 2012
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Great, meat!  Some things I would suggest thinking about as you move forward with it:

  • Mixed-Use: Basically Apartments, Condos, and Penthouses above ground-level shops.
  • Vetronia Mass Transit: Basically a rail line circling the island and hitting the major points.  Think of the Chicago Elevated Rail Line.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you have in mind!

 

I'm still playing around with the style for the Archives....I had to make the entrance smaller with the river ending up how it is, it was looking too huge.  I'm doing as much as I can today to get a presentable exterior done, at least an entrance and facade example, but with my gf's one-year anniversary tomorrow it might be next week before I can really dig into the plot.  However, I do know the foundation will be stone brick, so I'll put a bunch of chests there if anyone wants to make a Vault withdrawl.  I might be able to make some small starts soon, depending on whether I like the look of what I do today.

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August 10, 2012
12:32 pm
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for the shops selling services, a while bacl, dannychurches tried to start one up in spawn and what it had was a wall where anyone could post signs for jobs they want done. maybe we could have something simiilar, like a giant wall at spawn somewhere where people can post jobs they want done. and whoever sees the job first can just take it. i know theres the problem with greifers just tearing down every sin, but still, it would work for a bit.

We are all a little weird and life’s a little weird, and when we find someone whose weirdness is compatible with ours, we join up with them and fall in mutual weirdness and call it love Dr. Seuss
August 12, 2012
5:48 pm
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gunnerling said
for the shops selling services, a while bacl, dannychurches tried to start one up in spawn and what it had was a wall where anyone could post signs for jobs they want done. maybe we could have something simiilar, like a giant wall at spawn somewhere where people can post jobs they want done. and whoever sees the job first can just take it. i know theres the problem with greifers just tearing down every sin, but still, it would work for a bit.

I remember that quite well and how I desperately tried to get him to think about the process first (i.e. taking, posting, managing job, etc.) rather than thinking about what cool building it will be housed in. Alas, a building was constructed and proceeded to waste space without a meaningful purpose.

I think that this time around there will be a better chance we'll actually have a good process that goes with a great structure.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experiences of others, are also remarkable for their disinclination to do so. - D. Adams
February 24, 2013
10:55 am
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LWK, In your main post you said,

  • "Possible Objective: To increase population within the city
  • Possible Strategy: Give all new members, upon request, a free apartment within Vetropolis, complete with bed and protected chest.  Valid for 1 week only, while they figure out where they will live"

 

I thought upon this idea and totally agree with you.

 

Much like Emulated's recent Apartment building 'Morgan Towers' in LeFay, this idea could become a success very easily.

 

I have a few questions;

  • How would players go about getting apartments? Would there just be a sign saying 'You are entitled to a apartment for 1 week only.
  • Would these apartments be free? If yes, how would they pay? If no, would they have to pay after the one week, or would it just be completely free?
  • How would players find these apartments? Way finding  I thought of this because if players do not fully know their way around the city, how would they find it? The way finding idea could tie in very nicely with this idea.
  • Where would these apartments be built? I have no clue what this area is, or what it is planned to become but, possibly around here?
  • If you do take action on this project may I help? I would much appreciate it :) Untitled.pngImage Enlarger
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February 25, 2013
1:16 pm
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vEchozZ said
LWK, In your main post you said,

  • "Possible Objective: To increase population within the city
  • Possible Strategy: Give all new members, upon request, a free apartment within Vetropolis, complete with bed and protected chest.  Valid for 1 week only, while they figure out where they will live"

 

I thought upon this idea and totally agree with you.

 

Much like Emulated's recent Apartment building 'Morgan Towers' in LeFay, this idea could become a success very easily.

 

I have a few questions;

  • How would players go about getting apartments? Would there just be a sign saying 'You are entitled to a apartment for 1 week only.
  • Would these apartments be free? If yes, how would they pay? If no, would they have to pay after the one week, or would it just be completely free?
  • How would players find these apartments? Way finding  I thought of this because if players do not fully know their way around the city, how would they find it? The way finding idea could tie in very nicely with this idea.
  • Where would these apartments be built? I have no clue what this area is, or what it is planned to become but, possibly around here?
  • If you do take action on this project may I help? I would much appreciate it :) 

Thanks Echoz!  I do appreciate it.  I'll try and get to each of your points:

  • How would players go about getting apartments? Would there just be a sign saying 'You are entitled to a apartment for 1 week only. - There is a mechanism in Res called the Residence Market, which allows for users to rent a Res automatically.  Pretty much step into an empty apartment and type the command.
  • Would these apartments be free? If yes, how would they pay? If no, would they have to pay after the one week, or would it just be completely free? - Maybe not free, but very very cheap, at least for "newbie" apartments.  Cheap enough so that they could afford it after voting the first time.
  • How would players find these apartments? Way finding  I thought of this because if players do not fully know their way around the city, how would they find it? The way finding idea could tie in very nicely with this idea. - Wayfinding for sure.  General Vetropolis Wayfinding is on-tap for a project, and that would be a part of it.
  • Where would these apartments be built? I have no clue what this area is, or what it is planned to become but, possibly around here? - That's a good spot, and I'm sure there could be others.  That's one great thing about MC is that nothing is set in stone...if there's not a spot for something, make one.
  • If you do take action on this project may I help? I would much appreciate it :) - At the very least, the CBT would be a part of any undertaking like this, if I read the intent of it correctly.  In general, anyone with the will and ability to help is usually welcome.
"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
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