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The problem with the "Arda" update.
Topic Rating: +1 (1 votes) 
June 22, 2014
12:23 am
LordEboshi
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This past weekend, with 3 years under the server's belt, the staff provided an update with a new map \"Arda\" alongside a plethora of new changes to the server. However, many of these new changes are harmful to the existing playerbase.

 

For starters, the creation of a new primary world, while new and exiting, creates problems because it is a primaryworld. Arda replaced Vetronia as the server's primary, home world. This change, as well as new rules being added severely hinders those who want to stay in Vetronia. Not only are you severing such \"globalization\" networks as ships and airships with new rules 5.3 and 5.4:

  • 5.3) Can I still make a Vetronia portal ship?
  • No.
  • 5.4) Can I have a portal ship in Arda that goes to my build in Vetronia?
  • No.

(Taken from the Arda F.A.Q. page at http://www.veterancraft.net/gu...../arda-faq/)

but you are also removing functionalities of portals as seen in 3.6:

  • The Vetronia Nether will be removed and all portals in Vetronia, lit or not, will be unable to function. The Nether in Arda will be brand new.
So what you are doing is creating an illusion Vetronia remaining the same by saying stuff such as the statements in 3.1 and I quote: \"please be assured that Vetronia is not going to disappear. . .\" while including caveats right after with the words
\". . .immediately, and may not for a very long while.\" Why are you even going about it this way?
 
 
You are banking too much on Arda being the new source of life that VeteranCraft needs. Instead of taking a reasonable approach and introducing Arda as a permanant secondary world, and allowing the option for inhabitants to move to Arda, you instead are almost forcing players to stay relevant by moving to Arda. It is a blatant display of tight control and a neutering of the playerbase. What about all of the work put into Vetronia over the years? It is now irrelevant and soon-to-be obsolete with these new changes.
 
Secondly, we have always advertised ourselves as a server for \"mature\" individuals. Somewhere along the line we have lost sight of this. Perhaps we got desperate with the lower playerbase over the last few months, but many new changes are a \"dumbing down\" of already existing systems that worked. For instance, the GrieferProtection plugin. I've played on servers with this before, and one primary problem that always pops up eventually is the computational stress put on the server by large plots of land being claimed by players. While I don't know the details of the magnificent server inner-workings and whatever backend voodoo magic we like to dump our time into, it is a very real threat that I've seen happen multiple times over the years. But that's besides the point. We replaced Residence with GrieferProtection (GP) because Residence was \"too hard\" for the playerbase. And even if that's not the real reason that is surely the reason you are implying to us, the general population, in your F.A.Q. in section 4.3:
 
  • 4.3) What is GriefPrevention?
  • GriefPrevention is a very simple and holistic protection plugin. It is slightly less configurable than Residence, lacking flags for individual actions, but it’s simpler, clearer, and mostly idiot-proof. Here are some of the features which make GriefPrevention superior to Res:
And instead of keeping a system that worked, (because that's what we were led to believe, as we were given no information otherwise) we move to a new system and the transition is some convoluted \"sell your land and claim it again within 30 days for sweet bonuses!\" And don't even get me started on whatever map-damage paranoia that seems to be running rampant among ownership with such rules as 7.1:
 
  • 7.1) Can we flatten land?
  • No. We’ve introduced a rule where you may not pre-flatten more than a 40×40 area without building on it. The exception being if you purchase that land via GriefPrevention.
What fun is that? You are going in two different directions here. You want something new and shiny to draw people in or keep the current population complacent and happy and yes you are instilling more and more rules to try and regulate gameplay. It just comes off as a big joke when you state things such as \". . .but the glory of Minecraft is in building.\"
 
It's great that we're trying to make an effort to keep the server new and interesting but we're going about it the wrong way. I suppose the damage is already done and we'll all have to adapt but it is a big slap in the face to the people who were happy with the way things were. You are catering to some audience that lies on the fringe of a mature, intelligent server. Next time consider /all/ of your players before undergoing such a large change. This went on behind closed doors and occasionally waved in front of our face as a nice surprise. The loyal players are the ones that stay, not new ones you are trying to bring in.
 
Better luck next time.
 
Cheers,
LordEboshi
"Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you." - Puppet Master
June 22, 2014
1:07 am
terrorisly
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Hello LordEboshi,

I personally don't have much of the technical know-how and reasoning behind the plugin changes, but I can assure you that these changes have been tested and have been in the works since at least November 2013. Staff, especially technical staff, have been working hard to ensure a great experience for the vast majority of players. Arda was created for both the new and the old.

Just because you are unhappy, does not mean that you speak for the rest of the player base. Based off of my own anecdotal evidence, both newly established and old players were excited for the introduction of Arda. Players that left VeteranCraft had their interests piqued once more when we announced this new map. I was part of the vehement opposition when the idea was toyed with in VeteranCraft public chat, but I am satisfied with the way things were being handled. I was there when Vetronia was first introduced, over two years ago, and it has served, and will still serve me well. I don't plan on abandoning it, and I know of several other members who will use both worlds.

VeteranCraft is far from the norm in the fact that Vetronia existed, and will still exist, for as long as it has. Many servers wipe maps without reason, with little to no warning for the players. Vetronians still have until July 31st to get 100% refunds on their residences, and then use GriefProtection to claim the same amount of land for a cheaper price. Your stuff is not gone, and won't be gone for a while. Our staff has gone out of the way to provide these conveniences for the people of our server who have been online for a long time. GriefProtection fulfills the same functionalities as Residence and is a welcome addition to our plugin lineup.

As for land flattening, we implemented this rule on Vetronia as well, months ago, due to the large amount of people flattening huge areas of land and leaving. We pride ourselves on the beauty of the natural world, which again, was being lost on Vetronia because these rules did not exist from the start. This rule exists for the same reason that unnatural land extensions, floating buildings, and floating trees exist. Flattening a 200x200 area of land to do nothing with is not really considered building, it's closer to strip mining.

Finally, as we all know, there will be absolutely no way, in any circumstance, in every possible instance, that every single person will be pleased with something. I study public relations in school, and that is one of the first points that is stressed in our studies. The goal is to please a large majority, in this case, both old and new members. As per my own observation, the server has taken the necessary steps to please people. As attached as I still am to Vetronia, I am grateful that my land is still there for me to use and protect, and I am grateful to know that as long as it's in use, it will stay. I'm sure that other members feel the same as myself. Nobody is being forced to use Arda. We must also think about the fact that Vetronia was getting too crowded and was too difficult for newbies to use; they are important just as old members are to the community and to the vitality of the server.

We appreciate your concern and hope you continue to enjoy your time on VeteranCraft.

Angie

<3
June 22, 2014
1:24 am
frelling
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For once, I am dumbfounded and too tired to even response with something more than a single sentence.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experiences of others, are also remarkable for their disinclination to do so. - D. Adams
June 22, 2014
1:52 am
LordEboshi
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"VeteranCraft is far from the norm in the fact that Vetronia existed, and will still exist, for as long as it has. Many servers wipe maps without reason, with little to no warning for the players. Vetronians still have until July 31st to get 100% refunds on their residences, and then use GriefProtection to claim the same amount of land for a cheaper price. Your stuff is not  Our staff has gone out of the way to provide these conveniences for the people of our server who have been online for a long time."

So because others wipe their servers often and for no reason I should be grateful that our server doesn't share the same practices? Why does another servers behavior mean I should appreciate what goes on at VeteranCraft?

"GriefProtection fulfills the same functionalities as Residence and is a welcome addition to our plugin lineup."

But it doesn't. There are no vertical subdivisions, minute controls such as detailed subdivisions and flags, and there doesn't seem to be a better reason to the change than "it's easier and we like it!" Why did we make the change, exactly?

 

"As for land flattening, we implemented this rule on Vetronia as well, months ago, due to the large amount of people flattening huge areas of land and leaving. We pride ourselves on the beauty of the natural world, which again, was being lost on Vetronia because these rules did not exist from the start. This rule exists for the same reason that unnatural land extensions, floating buildings, and floating trees exist. Flattening a 200x200 area of land to do nothing with is not really considered building, it's closer to strip mining."

Why does this matter in a larger world? The problem existed in Vetronia and was made more apparent by the closer-knit communities. The dynamic has changed with a larger map. It just seems like the solution to older problems are being applied to a new environment where they aren't necessarily present yet. An unnecessary precaution.

 

"Finally, as we all know, there will be absolutely no way, in any circumstance, in every possible instance, that every single person will be pleased with something. I study public relations in school, and that is one of the first points that is stressed in our studies. The goal is to please a large majority, in this case, both old and new members. As per my own observation, the server has taken the necessary steps to please people. As attached as I still am to Vetronia, I am grateful that my land is still there for me to use and protect, and I am grateful to know that as long as it's in use, it will stay. I'm sure that other members feel the same as myself. Nobody is being forced to use Arda. We must also think about the fact that Vetronia was getting too crowded and was too difficult for newbies to use; they are important just as old members are to the community and to the vitality of the server."

Again, while it's great that you guys weren't foolish enough to wipe everything right away, the functionality of the "old" world of Vetronia was still cut. Why? Arda is the new content, shouldn't it be added in as the secondary world? It makes no sense the the world that everyone put time and effort into is now being made obsolete. Should I be grateful that my house wasn't torn down even though my electricity and plumbing were shut off?

"Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you." - Puppet Master
June 22, 2014
5:21 am
Okarim
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I must note that personally I do not mind the flattening rule at all.Too many people started big build projects, flattened a large swat of land, then became inactive. There's still an exception for claimed land (quite unneeded), but it means large projects will actually be built one part at a time.

Furthermore, we do not need massive amounts of flattening land for claimed land anymore, nor do we need it for land you intend to claim in the future while building it now. GP doesn't make you pay extra for a high claim, so flattening isn't needed as cost-balancing action. Which leaves us with flattening land simply because the project requires it. And with those, I think it'd be better if you build on it. Many people have flattened acres of land without actually finishing their build, and while others did finish them, I'd rather not eventually have Arda have the same ugly flattened zones that Vetronia has. Sure, the world is big, but that doesn't change that seeing all these flattened zones will break immersion and look quite bad both on dynmap and in the game.

To be fair, you assume this won't be a problem yourself. But I am less optimistic myself. So honestly, I quite like the rule and do not think it is a problem for anything but fringe cases.

 

You are right on that Residence offered more options than Grief-Protection does. The detailed setting of flags and subzones was useful when giving someone storage access, when creating multi-layer houses and when creating public farms. Also determining button settings for all.

However, one should ask themselves if that detail is necessary. Yes, if you now create a subclaim for someone in your town, they can build a massive tower in it, but that's player abuse and already something you could talk to staff about, plus you still have full control over the subclaim. Under the default settings you can use wooden doors+buttons to simply give everyone access, and you can allow everyone to use stone ones in a subclaim with /accesstrust all. There is no "block this specific person" anymore, and no "get trapped in an open no-move zone" anymore. We can't turn flow off, yes, but we can just build around that really. Sure, I can't do a harvestable ungriefable public farm the way I did in Residence, but I can still use pistons to break the melons/sugarcane, and let people press a wooden button to harvest. And it's not as if we actually need tons of tiny subzoned apartments, since about nobody actively lives and builds in both their own place and a bought plot in another person's claim. Nor do we really need to have a Healing flag on, or a pvp flag,

So while indeed a lot of finer detail is gone, these aren't details that break things. They're just small advantages we got used to having, but they're not necessary to enjoy the game, and we don't really need the added protection with what GP already offers.

 

Now what does GP give us that Residence doesn't? For starters, livestock protection. Until now no livestock protection plugin was found that was well-coded, up to date and worked well with other plugins. It also comes with anti-lava/water grief settings, anti-ender-pearl settings, anti-ender-men settings, grief-restoration methods and it blocks several grief methods that we had to manually adjust in Residence.

For example, you know why Pistons defaulted to disallowed in Residence? Because I discovered you could use pistons outside a residence to piston into it, or from it, and informed the staff about my concern. Grief Protection comes with this protection by default, so you can still use Pistons without worrying about getting griefed with them.

And with Residence we actively had to set the trample flag to make sure others couldn't trample, now only those with Build trust can. Yes, we lose the option to block trample for ourselves, but we also gain that people don't have to worry about it and realize they should change that flag.

A big thing of GP is that it combines a lot of functionality in one plug-in. This means a big headache of the staff, combining multiple plug-ins and hoping they play nice with each other, is gone. We still have quite a few options, and we gained additional protection mechanisms that Residence didn't handle well in itself, only with unreliable extensions or not at all. So there's definitely upsides to it.

 

 

I should also note that we aren't forced to abandon Vetronia. You can still ask for a Residence refund at 100% right now, then Grief-Protection the same place. If at any time you decide to move to Arda, if I recall correctly GP offers a 75% block-refund value so it's still not a full loss. And yes, the Vetronia Nether is removed, but the server deliberately only has 1 Nether as to save server resources. Our existing Portal Ships all still work, we simply cannot add new ones. And Vetronia will not disappear until people completely abandon it, which will take ages if ever and even IF it happens we'll get a long-duration headsup on it.

June 22, 2014
10:51 am
LightWarriorK
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I am going to be as brief and as concise as I can be.  If I ignore something, it's because I'm chosing to.

First summary points.

  1. I thought you were being somewhat sarcastic in this thread.  Now I know you were serious.  Know that Exodus was not meant to be a community project.  It didn't even include all of staff.  It was built with just a few people because we had a very short window in which to do so.  Additionally, about 90% of the Arda Update was policy and back-end related.  No, we weren't inviting folks to that process.  "Too many cooks spoil the soup," especially when our two cooks, frelling and mudwog, don't need help from us.  Those few who did build exodus did so to "get it done and out of the way."  None of us are sorry that we didn't invite every good builder to the project.  The few that did had a hard enough time getting it done with our conflicting viewpoints.
  2. You need to lose your ego here.  You're speaking authoritatively using phrases like "changes are harmful to the existing playerbase," "You are banking too much on Arda being the new source of life that VeteranCraft needs," and "big slap in the face to the people who were happy with the way things were."
    1. Do you think that the downsides to whatever we have done weren't considered, weighted, and mitigated?  Do you think we would do this if it meant harming VeteranCraft?  This was not done on a whim, but discussed, worked on, and planned for the past six months.
    2. Look at the server right now: http://maps.veterancraft.net/  It is NOON EST on a SUNDAY, and there are 26 people online!  When was the last time we had 26 people online?  And this isn't even a peak period.  You're insisting that this move will hurt VC.  Those of us on Staff and who have been far more active in this past year than you KNOW that this move is exactly what VC needed.
    3. Speaking authoritatively when you a) have no authority or right to speak with authority, and b) have been highly sporadic these last few months, doing very little with FoxTown, and even offering it to me because you couldn't play and c) don't know the back of the server at all....you need to accept that there are those here who know the situation, what caused it, and what the solutions better than you do. 

Now, briefly on to you points (because I want to get this done and be playing on VeteranCraft myself):

LordEboshi said
This past weekend, with 3 years under the server's belt, the staff provided an update with a new map "Arda" alongside a plethora of new changes to the server. However, many of these new changes are harmful to the existing playerbase.

 Like I said.  26 (scratch that, we jumped to 29 since I said 26 above) players online right now. That certainly looks like playerbase to me.  And many of them are older members who have been needing something to invigorate their play.

For starters, the creation of a new primary world, while new and exiting, creates problems because it is a primaryworld. Arda replaced Vetronia as the server's primary, home world. This change, as well as new rules being added severely hinders those who want to stay in Vetronia.

Your play on Vetronia is not changing at all.  If you want to stay in FoxTown, then stay in FoxTown.  You're just a /home away from /spawn, still.

Not only are you severing such "globalization" networks as ships and airships with new rules 5.3 and 5.4:

  • 5.3) Can I still make a Vetronia portal ship?
  • No.
  • 5.4) Can I have a portal ship in Arda that goes to my build in Vetronia?
  • No.

(Taken from the Arda F.A.Q. page at http://www.veterancraft.net/gu...../arda-faq/)

Nothing is being "severed." All Vetronia portal ships still exist, and will continue to do so.  We have NEVER allowed portal ships between worlds.

But let's dissect the portals for a second.  Say you wanted (before the update) to bring a player to FoxTown.  You tell him to go to spawn, then take a portal ship to you.  Now, they still go to spawn, but then just turn right walk through the Vetronia portal, then take a portal ship to you.  It's a difference of a about a 20 block walk.  Is that really such a "severing?"

but you are also removing functionalities of portals as seen in 3.6:

  • The Vetronia Nether will be removed and all portals in Vetronia, lit or not, will be unable to function. The Nether in Arda will be brand new.
So what you are doing is creating an illusion Vetronia remaining the same by saying stuff such as the statements in 3.1 and I quote: "please be assured that Vetronia is not going to disappear. . ." while including caveats right after with the words
". . .immediately, and may not for a very long while." Why are you even going about it this way?
I don't recall us ever saying that Vetronia will remain the same.  Your play will not change, and so long as you want to stay in Vetronia, the world will remain.  But Vetronia IS changing to a secondary world.  Staff has made the conscious decision to do so.
You are banking too much on Arda being the new source of life that VeteranCraft needs. Instead of taking a reasonable approach and introducing Arda as a permanant secondary world, and allowing the option for inhabitants to move to Arda, you instead are almost forcing players to stay relevant by moving to Arda. It is a blatant display of tight control and a neutering of the playerbase. What about all of the work put into Vetronia over the years? It is now irrelevant and soon-to-be obsolete with these new changes.
Arda as a secondary world would still hold the same draw.  It is what our players have been clamoring for, so instead of making it a secondary world, we embrace it as the primary.  It's a jolt, yes, but it was going to happen eventually, so Staff took a proactive approach.
While I don't know the details of the magnificent server inner-workings and whatever backend voodoo magic we like to dump our time into...
I'm going to ignore everything you say about GriefPrevention, because you do NOT know about the inner-workings, about GriefPrevention nor anything else.  It was the right move to make, both for the players and the server inner-workings, and I will let frelling talk more about it if he wishes.
And don't even get me started on whatever map-damage paranoia that seems to be running rampant among ownership with such rules as 7.1:
  • 7.1) Can we flatten land?
  • No. We’ve introduced a rule where you may not pre-flatten more than a 40×40 area without building on it. The exception being if you purchase that land via GriefPrevention.
What fun is that? You are going in two different directions here. You want something new and shiny to draw people in or keep the current population complacent and happy and yes you are instilling more and more rules to try and regulate gameplay. It just comes off as a big joke when you state things such as ". . .but the glory of Minecraft is in building."
As Angie said, that change was made months ago: http://www.veterancraft.net/ne.....ne-read/  The size of the map is irrelevant.  Flattening is a scar on the land and we have the right to prevent land scaring like this.  We aren't going to allow it.  Deal with it.
 
I actually just think you're trying to find little things to nit-pick at us now.  You are literally the ONLY complainer we have seen regarding this point.  We've had a few question it, but they understand the reason and the need.  I suggest you do the same.
It's great that we're trying to make an effort to keep the server new and interesting but we're going about it the wrong way. I suppose the damage is already done and we'll all have to adapt but it is a big slap in the face to the people who were happy with the way things were. You are catering to some audience that lies on the fringe of a mature, intelligent server.
Fringe, eh?  I think that's your ego talking again.  Do not forget that the the server picks mature and intelligent adults for staff, and these decisions were made by staff after getting the feel of the existing mature and intelligent playerbase, and knowing why the older mature and intelligent playerbase had left.  Do NOT try making the claim that this call was made to appease the fringe.  It's laughable.
Next time consider /all/ of your players before undergoing such a large change. This went on behind closed doors and occasionally waved in front of our face as a nice surprise. The loyal players are the ones that stay, not new ones you are trying to bring in.
As Angie said: "You can't please all people all the time."  However, given that this is only the second complaint I've seen, and that the server is seeing more activity than it has in a long time, I call it a good move.
 
And be VERY careful by trying to speak for "loyal players," Eboshi.  You certainly have not been very active lately, and DID try to give me your FoxTown build a few months ago, due to your lack of playing.  It is rare for me to see you on, and while we may play at different times, I'm one of the most active staff and I do know which players have been loyally consistent and active.  I would not, lately, count you among them.  Those that have been, we know this is the move they wanted to see.
 
And lastly, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."  The server was dying.  I know it may not have seemed it to you, as infrequent as you play, but it was.  It was OLD.  And while some may prefer a nice, quiet, empty server, VeteranCraft could not have survived much longer going the way it was.  If a few upset players is the price to pay for allowing them to be upset with us in-game, we'll pay that price.
 
In closing, it's obvious you're hurt, either from the perceived slight of not being included in the decisions that led to the changes, or from the idea that what you've built is so holy that it's a crime to marginalize it.  Yes, we ARE marginalizing Vetronia in favor of Arda.  But Vetronia still exists, and even right now there are some players on it.  It exists and will continue to do so as long as players want to play there.
 
So I greatly suggest you get over yourself and your perceived slights.  If you can, we'll see you in game, and you can keep building FoxTown as long as you wish.  If you can't, then best of luck on another server, but....

So because others wipe their servers often and for no reason I should be grateful that our server doesn't share the same practices? Why does another servers behavior mean I should appreciate what goes on at VeteranCraft?

....good luck getting the same quality of experience from them that you do from us.

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
June 22, 2014
11:07 am
SlocumFamily2
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Briefly

I don't think you can defend our criticisms of the changes with "when was the last time there were 26 people online?"

Well, (except for that stupid time with Twitch) when SR was updated.  In short, when an update occurs.  You could have added new Outer Reaches and you would have 26 people online. Just simply adding a secondary world would have had 26 people or more online.  All the rest with the portal ships, removal of residence, Nether, etc didn't have to happen to get that result.

 

I know this comment won't be received well, and I am sorry, but I do want to state how I see it:  It feels that anytime players come forward and say "we don't like this," staff responds with "other players do" (even though surveys say the opposite of non-staff players) and that, in short, VCs answer is to do things for how staff want it (who are bored since they are here so much) and then try to justify.  Mainly, it doesn't feel like our comments are responded to in any way other than "well this is what we decided...sorry."

June 22, 2014
11:17 am
frelling
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@LWK Thank you for your post. Even after a good night's sleep I am still somewhat dumbfounded. I have already explained in other posts that much forethought went into this release since December last year. VC is not a "design by committee" server. As LWK already pointed out, we have to address the needs of the server as a whole, first and foremost. If these changes ruffled anyone's feathers to a point of no return, then please feel free to use to door (below). Wish you the best elsewhere.

 

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experiences of others, are also remarkable for their disinclination to do so. - D. Adams
June 22, 2014
11:22 am
LightWarriorK
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SlocumFamily2 said
Briefly

I don't think you can defend our criticisms of the changes with "when was the last time there were 26 people online?"

Oh we certainly can.  It's a tough balance to appease every player (not possible) with keeping players active, but everyone needs to realize that keeping the player level high keeps the server alive.

Well, (except for that stupid time with Twitch) when SR was updated.  In short, when an update occurs.  You could have added new Outer Reaches and you would have 26 people online. Just simply adding a secondary world would have had 26 people or more online.  All the rest with the portal ships, removal of residence, Nether, etc didn't have to happen to get that result.

The changes made were done to ensure that this update was not just going to see a "burst" of players like an event or resource world opening would, but would invigorate the entire server for the foreseeable future.

I know this comment won't be received well, and I am sorry, but I do want to state how I see it:  It feels that anytime players come forward and say "we don't like this," staff responds with "other players do" (even though surveys say the opposite of non-staff players) and that, in short, VCs answer is to do things for how staff want it (who are bored since they are here so much) and then try to justify.  Mainly, it doesn't feel like our comments are responded to in any way other than "well this is what we decided...sorry."

Please do not reference surveys of non-staff players unless you can back that up.  The only truly negative comments my eyes have seen have been from you and Eboshi.  Others have concerns, naturally, but consider the changes to be positive.  We take all considerations into account, but in the end will do what is best for the server, and if that conflicts with what the Slocum/Eboshi faction wants, we are sorry, but we aren't going to run the server into the ground to appease just a few.  You can adapt to the changes FAR better than the server can survive not changing.

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
June 22, 2014
11:53 am
LordEboshi
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"I thought you were being somewhat sarcastic in this thread.  Now I know you were serious. "

I apologize for the confusion. Yes, that thread was one of my usual sarcastic threads. I'm being serious here..
 

What really alarms me is this paragraph:

"Look at the server right now: http://maps.veterancraft.net/  It is NOON EST on a SUNDAY, and there are 26 people online!  When was the last time we had 26 people online?  And this isn't even a peak period.  You're insisting that this move will hurt VC.  Those of us on Staff and who have been far more active in this past year than you KNOW that this move is exactly what VC needed."

 

When did we decide that just having more people was a better move? It's like a quality over quantity approach. We could have 100 griefers online or 3 solid community members.

"Speaking authoritatively when you a) have no authority or right to speak with authority, and b) have been highly sporadic these last few months, doing very little with FoxTown, and even offering it to me because you couldn't play and c) don't know the back of the server at all....you need to accept that there are those here who know the situation, what caused it, and what the solutions better than you do."

That's a really low blow. I considered you a friend and a trusted player because I saw the same dedication being put into your town and saw you as someone who was also passionate about their build. My time was going to be shady because I was entering University and was unsure when I could play. I put hundreds of hours into my city building it ALONE. But now it seems you are fine with just throwing away your work into Highmoor as well? Don't try and convince me that the functionality remains. It does not. 

"Nothing is being "severed." All Vetronia portal ships still exist, and will continue to do so.  We have NEVER allowed portal ships between worlds."

New ships CANNOT be made in Vetronia, and because I don't have an existing ship I'm SOL. The nether is now disabled in Vetronia, and I can't even make a link to Arda spawn. Those decisions DO sever the link between Arda and Vetronia. 

 

"Arda as a secondary world would still hold the same draw.  It is what our players have been clamoring for, so instead of making it a secondary world, we embrace it as the primary.  It's a jolt, yes, but it was going to happen eventually, so Staff took a proactive approach."
 
This is exactly what I am talking about. The decision was made to automatically set Arda as the primary world because "it was inevitable." Who can claim that? It's just a big letdown that you would drastically lower the accesibility of Vetronia, the main world for the past two years, because of a big new update.

 

"I'm going to ignore everything you say about GriefPrevention, because you do NOT know about the inner-workings, about GriefPrevention nor anything else.  It was the right move to make, both for the players and the server inner-workings, and I will let frelling talk more about it if he wishes."
 
I don't even know why you're scolding me about my GP statements unless there's something you know that I do not. I guess we'll just have to hear about it from frelling.

 

"As Angie said, that change was made months ago: http://www.veterancraft.net/ne.....ne-read/  The size of the map is irrelevant.  Flattening is a scar on the land and we have the right to prevent land scaring like this.  We aren't going to allow it.  Deal with it."
 
Sounds like my "Deal with it" list is getting larger than my "we're listening to feedback from the community" list.

 

 

 

"I actually just think you're trying to find little things to nit-pick at us now.  You are literally the ONLY complainer we have seen regarding this point.  We've had a few question it, but they understand the reason and the need.  I suggest you do the same."
 
And this is just the ultimate red flag. I've played on this server for almost two years, now. For years many things have been altered or changed for the "good of the community" with almost no input or opinion asked for from the community by the staff. I remember when anyone could use logblock back when I first began. This is just ridiculous though. Your are trying to single me out and invalidate my points by saying that I am the only complainer. That really goes to show how much you care about veteran players. 

 

"Fringe, eh?  I think that's your ego talking again.  Do not forget that the the server picks mature and intelligent adults for staff, and these decisions were made by staff after getting the feel of the existing mature and intelligent playerbase, and knowing why the older mature and intelligent playerbase had left.  Do NOT try making the claim that this call was made to appease the fringe.  It's laughable."

Again, I've yet to see any evidence because all of this goes on behind closed doors. When is the last time you asked for community input on the direction the server is going? I joined this server because the main map would not get wiped and I could feel confident that my hard work would not be suddenly thrown away. This is about as close as you can get to that. I don't feel as if you truly understand where I am coming from. Which is odd because I figured you would with all the time put into Highmoor. I am not trying to take a jab at you here. I am being serious. This doesn't phase you at all? Your city is now obsolete.
 

"And be VERY careful by trying to speak for "loyal players," Eboshi.  You certainly have not been very active lately, and DID try to give me your FoxTown build a few months ago, due to your lack of playing.  It is rare for me to see you on, and while we may play at different times, I'm one of the most active staff and I do know which players have been loyally consistent and active.  I would not, lately, count you among them.  Those that have been, we know this is the move they wanted to see."

Again, this just breaks my heart. I don't see you on as much as you don't see me on. But I'm certainly one of the oldest non-staff players still on this server. I've never been offline more than 2-3 weeks at a time and I've always been working on building my city up. My offer for you to take care of my city was when I was unsure if I could keep up my commitment, but I did. Don't you dare use that against me. I'd like to see who you consider loyally consistent and active and compare their history to mine.

 

 "And lastly, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."  The server was dying.  I know it may not have seemed it to you, as infrequent as you play, but it was.  It was OLD.  And while some may prefer a nice, quiet, empty server, VeteranCraft could not have survived much longer going the way it was.  If a few upset players is the price to pay for allowing them to be upset with us in-game, we'll pay that price."

 

I'm glad to see you care about my input. This just confirms it. We got desperate when the playerbase fell. Sure, it was a GREAT idea to introduce something new and as big as Arda. I am not denying that. I am arguing that we went about it in the WRONG manner. Mainly because of this reason:

 

 

"In closing, it's obvious you're hurt, either from the perceived slight of not being included in the decisions that led to the changes, or from the idea that what you've built is so holy that it's a crime to marginalize it.  Yes, we ARE marginalizing Vetronia in favor of Arda.  But Vetronia still exists, and even right now there are some players on it.  It exists and will continue to do so as long as players want to play there."

 

 
You are just waiting for Vetronia to die off. Keeping it around as long as players are there but dissuading them from playing there by taking away the existing functionality. That is the core problem with the update and the almost sole reason behind my posts. Would it have been to hard to introduce Arda as the truly secondary world and maintain Vetronia the way it was?
"Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you." - Puppet Master
June 22, 2014
1:31 pm
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This thread is going in circles and contributes nothing to the community. If any further questions are present, please ask them via PM.

Locked.

Anthony Hughes

#Vetra
June 22, 2014
5:25 pm
meatbawllz
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I will add one more post just to back up what LWK said. I will make this simple and short. I'm not going to go into micro details because frankly, nobody is forced to play in VeteranCraft.

For starters, the new flattening land rule was launched in March. See here. The reasons for that rule are 3 years in the making, and sorry, deal with it. You don't have a map this long without some decent build rules without having a piece of trash map. This rule is going to only hurt those who like to start things and not finish them, oh well.

Another thing you should know is that the Arda launch has been in discussion for at least 5 months, and in planning for 2. We looked at it every which way, and we're not just making some dumb willy nilly decision to change everything.

We love the loyal players, and have KEPT Vetronia in honor of them, while we could have easily wiped it, according to our governing law clause that allows us to do anything we feel will better the server. Very little is going to change for those who want to stay in Vetronia. You're upset you can't build a portal ship there now? What good is a portal ship if literally 3 people a month might travel on it?

We had to make some changes to breathe life back into the server because it was either that or watch it slowly die. I wasn't going to let that happen. So, while I respect your concerns, I hope you can respect the hundreds of hours of effort and thought put into these decisions. Change isn't always easy, but I feel we've made it very easy in this case. Now I will lock this topic and ask for specific suggestions to be put on hold for some weeks until you actually give the changes a chance, then come back and make a suggestion post.

Please don't post an emotional 'what about the old days' post the day after a launch.

 

PS: Maria, I know you may think these changes are some way of us making your life harder, but imagine if you put your whole self into something for 5 months, spent time, blood, sweat, tears, risked relationships with the people you're building it with, only to be immediately criticized non-stop about it when it goes live? If you don't want to give Arda a shot, stay in Vetronia. Nothing changes for you except some technical aspects, like protecting your home differently. Just remember how you'd feel if someone walked in the day after your baby was born and told them "that's an ugly baby". That's what it seems like you're telling us - and you haven't even bothered to really give it a chance. I have a feeling, you'll like it.

Founder and owner of VeteranCraft. "He who says he can, and he who says he can't, are both usually right." -Confucious
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