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Rule Changes
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May 26, 2015
2:43 pm
SuperSheep23
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Hello, Sheep here. I have been a loyal player to Veterancraft for two years now. I do not say that to strike awe into the hearts of others, merely to provide perspective. The new update, 1.8, is right around the corner. With this comes many changes, and that includes a rule change in regards to what is and is not griefing. I realize this rule is not set in stone, so that is why I felt now would be a good time to begin discussing it. I did not put this under suggestions because I feel that this topic is more than a mere suggestion for a rule change, it is a serious discussion that all community members should be able to participate in. I would like to think that I understand why this rule has been set in place, however, if there is something a staff knows that I do not, feel free to correct me.

As far as I understand, this rule will make it so that any build, besides roads and other transportation systems, will be "up for grabs" by players if it is unclaimed. As with any rule, there are ups and downs. I believe that one main reason this rule is being considered, is because there simply are not enough moderators to effectively deal with each and every one-block grief that happens on the server.

I can see two different solutions to this problem. The first is making people more aware of sponsors' log block powers. Asking sponsors to step up and help the community in terms of dealing with one-block griefs and other little things will save moderators a lot of time, which they can dedicate to other endeavors. I most certainly do not mind, and I can speak for quite a few other sponsors who would not mind helping others as well.

The second solution, make more moderators. While making more moderators seems to be an easy solution, there are few candidates left. Many long-term players are not old enough, and there have been few new players because the server is still in 1.7.9. The only way to rectify this lack of candidates is to change the rules, or wait for a few months after the update and find some worthy, of age candidates. This makes finding new moderators an unlikely situation, so it probably is easier to just change the rules to ease the strain on our current ones.

While I realize that this solution seems easier, I do not think it is true to the servers original goals, and founding purpose. The Veterancraft that I have been lucky to be a part of for the last two years is a warm, welcoming multiplayer community where people of all ages can build what they want, and be sure it lasts the night. There has always been a push to claim land, and rightfully so, as I have seen what happens when people do not follow that suggestion. This new amendment is meant to further enforce that rule, by leaving anything that is unprotected, up for grabs. This rule is meant to make things EASIER on everyone, but sometimes, easy does NOT mean better. Veterancraft has always been a special server. In my opinion, shifting to this new philosophy will make our server just like all of the other ones; a server that cares more about efficiency than its players experience. Efficiency is important, but these new, looser rules may foster a community of people who just go around griefing everything they can find that is unprotected.

I do not know about everyone else, but I feel as though this community could do without those types of people. The lack of "trolls" is why everybody loves this community. I have made several friends on the server, who have since stopped playing, that I still talk to outside of the game. Everyone who behaves themselves is welcomed into the community, and I fear that this new definition of behaving will welcome in more and more "trolls," making the server a less enjoyable experience. The beginning of summer vacation, and the update to 1.8, will bring in a lot more new players, making this discussion imperative to the servers continued success. Thank you for listening to my views, and I look forward to reading your views as well. 

 

Edited by Okamat: I broke this into paragraphs for easier reading. Cool

Yay
May 26, 2015
3:11 pm
Okamat
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 This rule is meant to make things EASIER on everyone, but sometimes, easy does NOT mean better. Veterancraft has always been a special server. In my opinion, shifting to this new philosophy will make our server just like all of the other ones; a server that cares more about efficiency than its players experience. Efficiency is important, but these new, looser rules may foster a community of people who just go around griefing everything they can find that is unprotected.

I do not know about everyone else, but I feel as though this community could do without those types of people. The lack of "trolls" is why everybody loves this community.

 

This is actually a concern of mine as well. I'm concerned that it opens up Veterancraft to allow griefers to have their fun on the server with no repercussions because of the potential rule change. That's not the type of person I personally want to see playing on this server or have to deal with on a regular basis. You are right in saying that it's the lack of trolls here that appeals to the people who like playing on here. 

May 26, 2015
7:25 pm
si1entSASQUATCH
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SuperSheep23 said 

I can see two different solutions to this problem. The first is making people more aware of sponsors' log block powers. Asking sponsors to step up and help the community in terms of dealing with one-block griefs and other little things will save moderators a lot of time, which they can dedicate to other endeavors. I most certainly do not mind, and I can speak for quite a few other sponsors who would not mind helping others as well.

The second solution, make more moderators. While making more moderators seems to be an easy solution, there are few candidates left. Many long-term players are not old enough, and there have been few new players because the server is still in 1.7.9. The only way to rectify this lack of candidates is to change the rules, or wait for a few months after the update and find some worthy, of age candidates. This makes finding new moderators an unlikely situation, so it probably is easier to just change the rules to ease the strain on our current ones.

These are two great solutions, but as with any solution "there are ups and downs." For the first one, it would be great to better inform the prospective new general population of the Log Block abilities of sponsors.  It would certainly prevent some griefers if they knew their activities could be tracked by non-mods, and I know from personal experience that many of the long term players and sponsors are more than happy to help their fellow Veterans. However, it might be unfair to thrust such a responsibility on every sponsor who has LB abilities.  The second solution, make more mods, has the problem that you previously mentioned, a low number of viable candidates.  I'd like to propose another option that would solve these two issues, and like any solution "there are ups and downs."

What if we had a feeder program to help determine if someone was a viable candidate for being a mod? I'm thinking of a deputy program, where we have a large number of active players doing the "leg work" for the mods.  The candidates would have low responsibility jobs like Log Blocking potential grief sites and reporting ban requests (services that many active players already provide).  As deputies, they would not be able to wield the "ban hammer" themselves, but they would submit properly documented ban requests (evidence incriminating the play to be potentially punished ex. screenshots showing bad behavior), which would make it much easier for moderators to effectively enforce the rules.  In exchange for their hard work, the most outstanding candidates would be able to become Junior Moderators as positions in the staff open up.  In addition, they should get some sort of name modifier (e.x. [D] for deputy) to show that they are a deputy, because it would make it easier to contact deputies and help prevent some illicit activities by making apparent that a deputy is online. (sorry for the run-on sentences I've been awake for about 45 hours)

To me, the pros to this suggestion vastly out weight the cons.  First, it makes potential new Junior Moderators easily apparent, without giving too much power to candidates.  It releases moderators from much of the leg work involved in keeping the peace (Log Blocking).  It also makes it easier for moderators to efficiently enforce the server rules, because they could simply look over a properly documented ban request, move to serve as a ban report, and ban the perpetrator.  

Despite these "ups" my suggestion does have it's "downs." The first is that I don't know how to implement my suggestion.  I am hoping that it wouldn't be too difficult to do, just modify a candidates name and give them ptp teleporting and Log Block regardless of player rank.  In addition, introducing a new position into VC society could have any number of side-effects that I can't determine.  For example, maybe an overzealous deputy, always looking for a way to "standout," would create some problems by inserting themselves into any situations that they see a potential problem could arise.  All things considered, I think that a deputy program would be a great addition to VC, which would solve several issues while making it easier to determine potential new staff.

Respectfully,

si1entSASQUATCH

May 26, 2015
8:23 pm
Frenchy
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si1entSASQUATCH said

SuperSheep23 said 

I can see two different solutions to this problem. The first is making people more aware of sponsors' log block powers. Asking sponsors to step up and help the community in terms of dealing with one-block griefs and other little things will save moderators a lot of time, which they can dedicate to other endeavors. I most certainly do not mind, and I can speak for quite a few other sponsors who would not mind helping others as well.

The second solution, make more moderators. While making more moderators seems to be an easy solution, there are few candidates left. Many long-term players are not old enough, and there have been few new players because the server is still in 1.7.9. The only way to rectify this lack of candidates is to change the rules, or wait for a few months after the update and find some worthy, of age candidates. This makes finding new moderators an unlikely situation, so it probably is easier to just change the rules to ease the strain on our current ones.

These are two great solutions, but as with any solution "there are ups and downs." For the first one, it would be great to better inform the prospective new general population of the Log Block abilities of sponsors.  It would certainly prevent some griefers if they knew their activities could be tracked by non-mods, and I know from personal experience that many of the long term players and sponsors are more than happy to help their fellow Veterans. However, it might be unfair to thrust such a responsibility on every sponsor who has LB abilities.  The second solution, make more mods, has the problem that you previously mentioned, a low number of viable candidates.  I'd like to propose another option that would solve these two issues, and like any solution "there are ups and downs."

What if we had a feeder program to help determine if someone was a viable candidate for being a mod? I'm thinking of a deputy program, where we have a large number of active players doing the "leg work" for the mods.  The candidates would have low responsibility jobs like Log Blocking potential grief sites and reporting ban requests (services that many active players already provide).  As deputies, they would not be able to wield the "ban hammer" themselves, but they would submit properly documented ban requests (evidence incriminating the play to be potentially punished ex. screenshots showing bad behavior), which would make it much easier for moderators to effectively enforce the rules.  In exchange for their hard work, the most outstanding candidates would be able to become Junior Moderators as positions in the staff open up.  In addition, they should get some sort of name modifier (e.x. [D] for deputy) to show that they are a deputy, because it would make it easier to contact deputies and help prevent some illicit activities by making apparent that a deputy is online. (sorry for the run-on sentences I've been awake for about 45 hours)

To me, the pros to this suggestion vastly out weight the cons.  First, it makes potential new Junior Moderators easily apparent, without giving too much power to candidates.  It releases moderators from much of the leg work involved in keeping the peace (Log Blocking).  It also makes it easier for moderators to efficiently enforce the server rules, because they could simply look over a properly documented ban request, move to serve as a ban report, and ban the perpetrator.  

Despite these "ups" my suggestion does have it's "downs." The first is that I don't know how to implement my suggestion.  I am hoping that it wouldn't be too difficult to do, just modify a candidates name and give them ptp teleporting and Log Block regardless of player rank.  In addition, introducing a new position into VC society could have any number of side-effects that I can't determine.  For example, maybe an overzealous deputy, always looking for a way to "standout," would create some problems by inserting themselves into any situations that they see a potential problem could arise.  All things considered, I think that a deputy program would be a great addition to VC, which would solve several issues while making it easier to determine potential new staff.

Respectfully,

si1entSASQUATCH

I actually really like your idea, but again, there's the problem where there's only a limit to what we can do and what we would be allowed to do. I do go around reporting what I see, and posting ban requests when I catch a hacker in the works. The main issue is that a good 70% of the bans are from x-raying. There is absolutely no way for a regular player to spot an x-rayer, unless they are being really obvious about it. The mods principally go into this "No clip" mode (I assume) to highlight the coming and goings of a miner, and their mining deviations. I doubt we are ready to be entrusting anyone who isn't fully committed to being a mod have those powers.

  As I said, me and some other players have done what we can in the past to report suspicious and unlawful activities. However, there is only so much we can do, even if we did do this "Partial mod" system as you put it. While I agree it could be really helpful, I think we need, as Sheep suggested, a few more moderators, who have all the required tools for catching culprits.

 

//Rant

Let me be frank about this. I completely agree with Sheep that the age barrier for the mods is getting inconvenient in more ways than one. Barely anyone who has been around long enough to be eligible to be mods (and are active enough for it) are too young. The main problem here is that we are evaluating age over maturity.

It is a usual assumption that if someone wants to be a mod, they just want to have it for the power, and for the title. I say nay.

A) Someone who's been around for a long time, who's shown proof they are mature, and want to be a mod, don't want it just for the power. Is it wrong to be excited to help our server grow griefer free?

B) Sometimes we do just want to help the server out. Some of us have been on here for over a year, and so far one of the only reason I've stayed is because the community is so great, and the staff have done their job of getting rid of chaotic elements. I don't think it's wrong to try to maintain that

I just think the server should rethink it's stance on age. Just saying. Kiss

Rant Over//

May 27, 2015
12:27 am
MikeB1974
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I don't think making a new rank of Jr. detective is the way to go. Sheep's idea has merit about the sponsors with LB stepping up. Sponsors are easy to spot already, no need for a designation on their names. For me, I'm always happy to help out, i just need to be asked. Yeah i'm quiet, usually keep to myself but that's just me and my style. There is also another category that seems to have been overlooked. I've run into it alot as an officer in WoW, SW, Rift etc. and that is the people who want to be an officer/mod simply to be one. They like the title and the perks to go with it simply to make themselves feel good and better than others.

Another problem is recruiting. What would be the criteria? (time played in a week/month avg? age? time on server?) Would you ask for volunteers or would you solicit players? As a CO-GM in WoW, those who were eager to step up and fill an officer spot were always low on my list, mostly because of just about all of the problems listed above by me and others who posted.

 

my 2 cents.

May 27, 2015
7:11 am
si1entSASQUATCH
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MikeB1974 said
Another problem is recruiting. What would be the criteria? (time played in a week/month avg? age? time on server?)

That is a great question!  One main idea of the deputy program, is that they would have minor responsibilities with very little power (pretty much a position of observe and report).  So you could have much more relaxed criteria as compared to Moderator recruitment, which would potentially provide an opportunity for someone that wouldn't normally be considered for a JM position to prove that they are ready for it (ex. players under the age of 18, or that haven't been playing for years).  I just thought that a feeder-program would be an excellent filter that would allow the criteria for moderator recruitment to be relaxed without lowering the quality of staff (my 2 cents).

Respectfully,

si1entSASQUATCH

May 27, 2015
7:27 am
LightWarriorK
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There is a LOT here which I'll try and get to eventually.  I want to give each point its due, but don't have the time to do so right now.  I will say two things right now:

  1. No change will be made to the griefing rules if they are going to harm the server.  Changes will be made with due consideration, and with enough mechanisms in place that VC will remain the friendly place it always has been.  But at the end of the day....if your stuff is Claimed, you will have nothing to worry about.
  2. It won't do much good to discuss the moderating here, though I can't stop you.  Just know that any whiff of someone wanting to be a mod, even a "deputy," pretty much rules them out in my book. "Those who seek power are those from whom power should be withheld."

I'll try to find some time later today to address this thread in detail.  Thanks for the great conversation. Laugh

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
May 27, 2015
1:06 pm
LightWarriorK
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SuperSheep23 said
As far as I understand, this rule will make it so that any build, besides roads and other transportation systems, will be "up for grabs" by players if it is unclaimed. As with any rule, there are ups and downs. I believe that one main reason this rule is being considered, is because there simply are not enough moderators to effectively deal with each and every one-block grief that happens on the server.

If we were made aware of every one-block grief that was done, you'd be correct that we don't have enough staff.  But  honestly, the incidents of griefing have dropped to near zero since we implemented GP.

The reason the rule is being considered is simple: griefing isn't a problem anymore.  If people care about their builds, they'll Claim them, and if they don't care about Claiming, why should they be protected?

I can see two different solutions to this problem. The first is making people more aware of sponsors' log block powers. Asking sponsors to step up and help the community in terms of dealing with one-block griefs and other little things will save moderators a lot of time, which they can dedicate to other endeavors. I most certainly do not mind, and I can speak for quite a few other sponsors who would not mind helping others as well.

Again, if we were stressed with griefing reports, this might be an option.  But it's not really enough of an issue to be overly concerned about.

The second solution, make more moderators. While making more moderators seems to be an easy solution, there are few candidates left. Many long-term players are not old enough, and there have been few new players because the server is still in 1.7.9. The only way to rectify this lack of candidates is to change the rules, or wait for a few months after the update and find some worthy, of age candidates. This makes finding new moderators an unlikely situation, so it probably is easier to just change the rules to ease the strain on our current ones.

With the 1.8 Update will come much more targeted marketing, like we used to have once upon a time.  Trust me that there will be no lack of candidates, IF we need them.

This rule is meant to make things EASIER on everyone, but sometimes, easy does NOT mean better. Veterancraft has always been a special server. In my opinion, shifting to this new philosophy will make our server just like all of the other ones; a server that cares more about efficiency than its players experience. Efficiency is important, but these new, looser rules may foster a community of people who just go around griefing everything they can find that is unprotected.

I do not know about everyone else, but I feel as though this community could do without those types of people. The lack of "trolls" is why everybody loves this community. I have made several friends on the server, who have since stopped playing, that I still talk to outside of the game. Everyone who behaves themselves is welcomed into the community, and I fear that this new definition of behaving will welcome in more and more "trolls," making the server a less enjoyable experience.

This is a legitimate concern, of course, and one that we're aware of and not taking lightly.  For one, simply because we are thinking of allowing griefing of unprotected builds doesn't mean we're going to stand for griefers to be a part of the server, or "foster" that sort of community.  That's why we have GP.  And we're looking into making sure that folks have claim blocks who need them.

The problem that many users have with not having GP blocks is trying to claim more than they need at the time.  100 blocks per hour of play is pretty decent when you think about what you can get with that.  Add in voting and the free market and you can really make a claim of a good size without being a Sponsor.  It's when people try for mega-projects and build beyond their claiming ability that we run into problems.

But so long as builds are claimed, we won't see a griefer community here on VC.  Griefers don't want to grief paths or fences....they want to grief houses and storages.

And keep in mind that griefers and thieves almost NEVER just grief or steal.  They're very typically foul-mouthed and doing several things wrong....especially when they find out the stuff they want to break is protected.Surprised

But you're right, there may be incidents where we'll have some jerks just running around and breaking whatever they can.  The "trolls" you mention.  To this I would refer you to the /guide/server-rules/:

VeteranCraft reserves the right to change its policies, rules, and resources. 

We do appreciate the conversation, as it does give us a lot to think about.  If and when the need does arise, you can be sure we'll remember these suggestions.  There may be a time when we do change the staff requirements, and that we do change the griefing rules around.  But I can't speak to those points openly, even if they were up for debate.

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
May 27, 2015
4:28 pm
SuperSheep23
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This entire thing about moderators and adding more of them was never really my intention for this thread, however it seems to have turned into that. In my opinion, a Jr. Jr. moderator is unnecessary, and really would just clutter things up. I am sure we'll see a lot of new, worthy candidates after 1.8, and I look forward to that. The reason that I brought up moderators in general is because I thought that the lack of them was the reason this rule change was being implemented. My main concern is what okamat touched upon. I am just worried that this new griefing rule will bring in the crazies. I want nothing more than to be a part of a wonderful community of wonderful people, and I am just trying to better understand how this rule change will affect that experience in the future. I appreciate all of the feedback, and I want to thank those of you who took the time to address my concerns.Laugh

Yay
May 27, 2015
4:36 pm
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If i may add my comments:

(please forgive typing)

 

This may not be a popular opinion, but i don't understand why anyone would build or keep anything on land they have not claimed.  There are just too many problems that can arise from keeping as much as a chest in an unprotected place.  So why would you want to?  You can always expand as you build.  You can earn money from voting and selling items, along with gathering claim blocks during play time accrued.

That said, I agree that we don't want to be like other servers and let folks grab whatever happens to be left unattended for a bit.

I think the concept of "not even one block" is a good indicator of the kind of player VC strives to have.  Meaning, you'd rather have s player who goes out of their way to respect someone else's stuff than one who says "Look, the new guy hasn't protected anything in his house.  I am gonna go grab some furnaces and iron..."

Therefore, the low tolerance for griefing is always a good idea.

 

Regarding mods:  VC seems nervous about appointing mods. Now, I know the story behind this, but i think holding back on appointing new ones is a possible problem.

It would be nice if (in addition to all the work you have put in to keeping out hackers and raid parties) if VC was thought of as "that server you dont want to mess with, because there is always a mod on."

Clearly, people have lives and need to live them...and need to take breaks now and then.  But there are some mods whom I nearly never see.  More mods means more coverage...even when some of them need breaks.

Perhaps also considering people in different time zones (US...UK...Australia) could also help with coverage.

 

Anywho, those are my thoughts.  Thanks for reading.

May 31, 2015
11:44 am
AdmlAdama
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I haven't read all the posts yet so forgive me if this has been suggested

What if the server donated claim blocks enmass to certain users.

They can then do claims around unprotected builds and then trust the original builder using log block

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