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10:46 am
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
Offline
This one has been growing on my mind for a long time now, and I'd like to make a topic about it, for discussion at least, if not formal adoption.
Currently the building rules have this point:
Try to keep the wilderness looking as pretty as you found it. If you do clear-cut, replant, if you do strip-mine, cover the spot with soil.
There is a practice on this server which seems to violate this: "Pre-flattening" of large areas of land for future building. I believe this is AS ugly if not MORE ugly than strip mining, and should even be considered in the same category.
Now, note the (IMHO) difference between "Pre-flattening" and "Flattening." It's perfectly alright to flatten. It's necessary in most cases. If I may use the example of Vetra, that is flattening with a purpose: namely, Vetra is being actively built upon, and for the most part the flattening has been done in waves as development has occurred. This is fine. Nothing wrong.
The problem, as I see it, is when people just go out, and without placing a single structure, start "pre-flattening" a massive area, which then never sees development. The area becomes a scar on the landscape and is pretty much permanent. Even if the damage could be repaired, it wouldn't look very good. There are a few examples out there right now of this, and even though most of these areas will see some structure, many are left abandoned. One example that has always stuck in my craw was Koitenshin's place. The whole area was pre-flattened, a building barely started, and then *poof,* he leaves the server. Hasn't been on in months, unless I'm mistaken. And now we're left with that scar, and even if the Res is removed and the buildings reclaimed, that scar on the landscape will remain, and not many builders would re-use that area.
I guess my point is, why forbid strip mining, but allow this?
And believe me, I know that a LOT of great development is going on that needs to have land flattened, and that land has to be flattened "pre" development. I used Vetra as an example, but there are others. Navarro, for example, really got going with its harbor and capital before the land around it was flattened. Vetra and Hyacith flatten only what is within their already built walls, or those lands separated within the walls. I hope the distinction is clear: there is a clear difference between those doing flatting as needed for a city or mega-project, and those who pre-clear huge swaths of land with no real intent on fully using the whole area or completing a project on it.
But I'm proposing a rule-change, aren't I? I propose that a bullet point be added under "Building Rules," directly below the point quoted above, to state:
Any land wide-area land flattening must be done as part of a project in progress. Do not pre-flatten areas without a project plan or visible intent to FULLY utilize the flattened area. Only flatten what you need, and only when you will need it.
Ok, discuss 
1:50 pm
November 25, 2012
Offline
Having to submit a plan like filing for a building permit kinda sucks the fun and creativity out of a game in my opinion. Also I would rather stumble upon pre flattened land to build on then a land covered in crappy cobble stone huts and structures that are a nightmare to tear down (super breaker doesn't work on cobble). I have walked around a large portion of the vetronia map and really have not seen this issue aside from the land I was paid to help clear at navarro. Strip mining you have to refill or cover the hole, though covering it will just turn it into an annoying mob spawner at best, a potential death pit when digging or attacked by creepers at worst. I realize you have a degree in engineering and like the idea of a extremely structured road system and building plans, but forcing your love of organization and structure on a game meant for people to be creative and have fun on kinda seems harsh. I have seen servers that have a very rigid build style code, thats fine for people who want to play that way and like the style they are forcing, but seems late in the game to force people to fall in line now. I can understand wanting to keep the wilderness looking natural, but once the land is ressed, people that paid to res it should be free to flatten or build things that do not break the rules ie don't build penises etc.
As for abandoned land, I don't know anyway to avoid it looking unnatural other then regenerating chunks which will not match up well in my experience with the chunks around it. I don't know how you can avoid people leaving the server and their projects behind finished or not as I see this happen with people that are staff all the way down to members that played an hour.
2:38 pm
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
Offline
Oh no, I certainly don't mean building permits. I guess that second sentence in my proposal mucks things up. I'm NOT saying that people can't flatten or build what they want, but only in that vein of "keeping Vetronia pretty," only flattening as needed and when needed, which I don't really feel is unreasonable. I wouldn't force a style on anyone at all, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I didn't think it did; I was trying to be clear in saying that flatting is important, but the way it's done is what I would like to work on. Just like strip mining isn't illegal if you cover it, flatting wouldn't be illegal....just do it a bit at a time, maybe, as you go?
And you're right, we can't avoid people leaving. To me, that's all the more reason that if there's going to be a scar and/or abandonment, it should be kept minimal and not reflect poorly on the server when they're gone. IRL, builders are licensed and bonded, meaning that a bank backs them to make sure that the project WILL be finished even before they break ground. That can't and won't happen in Minecraft, of course, and although I have a degree in planning (not engineering) that doesn't mean that I'm ignorant of that fact, in truth I'm a little hurt that you might feel I am, Wally. Playing Minecraft since 2009 and being a mod/admin for the official Minecraft Forum for 2 years, I do know the practical limits of multiplayer in a game like this.
All I am saying is that since the rule against strip mining is in place to keep the server pretty, wouldn't it make sense to work to limit some of the land scarring by flattening before it is needed?
2:45 pm
August 18, 2011
Offline
The practice of leveling large areas, flattening mountains/hills, or cutting swathes throughout the landscape without concern for the general topology has been a pet peeve of mine forever. Any builds under my direct control have always focused on aesthetically coexisting with the natural topography and landscape.
Unfortunately, there is no easy solution for ensuring that others have the same respect. Conceptual a controlled approach as outlined herein would work, and I could see it feasible for select areas (e.g. Vetropolis Island); however, overall it would be an administrative nightmare, surely to result in a failed process, despite its best intentions.
We could roll back or copy chunks from a pristine copy, but that itself is not a very stable process. For the most part, when I've come across unfinished/abandoned eyesores, I try restoring them manually. Maybe there is a possibility to have a "Keep Vetronia Beautiful" project through which identified eyesores/land scars are fixed?
3:04 pm
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
Offline
frelling said
Unfortunately, there is no easy solution for ensuring that others have the same respect. Conceptual a controlled approach as outlined herein would work, and I could see it feasible for select areas (e.g. Vetropolis Island); however, overall it would be an administrative nightmare, surely to result in a failed process, despite its best intentions.We could roll back or copy chunks from a pristine copy, but that itself is not a very stable process. For the most part, when I've come across unfinished/abandoned eyesores, I try restoring them manually. Maybe there is a possibility to have a "Keep Vetronia Beautiful" project through which identified eyesores/land scars are fixed?
Absolutely it could be a nightmare, I doubt it could be something that could be kept up with. Would it be enough to just have it in the rules to refer to and hopefully people will keep in mind?
We had the KVPP thread "Keep Vetronia Pretty Project," but that sort of petered out when Okarim started making it elitist, as in trying to make a group of players who would decide such things, outside of staff. I have no problem with trying to do something like that, but there would have to be some good guidelines on what gets fixed and who fixes it. And what materials would be used. If we're rebuilding the landscape, that's a lot of dirt needed. But thanks, frelling, those are some good points.
3:42 pm
August 18, 2011
Offline
If you want to breath life into KVPP, KVB, or whatever is best to call it, by all means feel free to move forward. My only guidelines will be to keep it simple and safe. Holes/pits are filled in, not just covered up. What they are filled with doesn't matter - dirt, gravel, waste cobble, etc. Top layer should reflect the surround landscape (e.g. dirt, stone, sand, etc.), and foliage (i.e. trees, grass, etc.)
While this is common sense, I'll risk stating the obvious. Keep the initial effort small with a limited number of volunteers, maybe address one or two smaller eyesores. Too many cooks early on can spoil the soup. After a few trial runs, it can be opened to more general participation and larger projects.
4:45 pm
Staff Alumni
October 23, 2011
Offline
Regarding Koitenshin's abandoned area: I will allow the server to move all of Kerr Keep there magically. 
You know, if that's something you're interested in. Hahaha!
4:58 pm
August 16, 2011
Offline
I couldn't agree more, light. Like frelling, this is a huge pet peeve of mine. I'll try to help you out as much as you would like if you were to go forward with the KVB. Also, lol pher 
.
10:32 pm
November 25, 2012
Offline
From personal experience with clearing and also making land look natural again, it really doesn't take a person thats bored or interested in doing so very long to make a bit of land look natural again. I think its easier to work with flat land for rescaping but thats just a personal preference, maybe some people prefer redoing an area thats been strip mined of sandstone. I tend to patch eye sores I find near my own place I would imagine most conscientious land developers on the server do as well. If you do reform a league to make eye sores pretty I would definately donate dirt, gravel or other needed goods that I have many thousands of stockpiled, or saplings, cactus, even dead shrubs. I would also probably help "re-wildernize" an area if you point me to one you think needs some love. I am anxious to avoid adding more rules, adult language is not allowed excessively but sometimes if a new person hints at even a bad word some non staff members go off like car alarms telling them its not allowed, I am afraid to see what peoples loose interpretation of a rule like this would result in, likely alot of misunderstandings and bad info to new players giving them the impression they would need permission to flatten land.
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