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8:31 am
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
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One of the things that I've noticing for a while is just how much space we have that isn't being used. Particularly the Outer Reaches. Everyone just goes to Seraph's Realm now. And when the OR is reset, everyone will use that and the SR will be less used. It seems like a vicious cycle, but I couldn't really think of a good suggestion to break it.
After picking my jaw off the floor, and piecing together my shattered pride since that makes Highmoor look small and lame, I started thinking....wouldn't this be nice to do on VC?
Yeah, we've got some communal projects going on, specifically right now the VHS and VRS, but the benefits of those projects are pretty marginal. Roads and Restoration are fine, but.....my God, King's Landing....
So here is my suggestion:
- When the OR resets, it is reset to be a communal world, once specifically set up to be NOT for everyone's little individual projects, but to accomplish a unified project of massive and epic scope (tbd at a later time).
- For the sake of security of the project, it would ideally be completely protected with Res, and only those participating would be able to build. This is NOT to be exclusive and elitist, just to ensure that no griefing of the project would happen. I'd say the criteria for being able to build should simply be a judgement that the player is, in fact, trustworthy.
- Since it would only be for a single project, it could be a much smaller world, maybe only 2,000 by 2,000? That would be more than sufficient.
- Possibly use a custom terrain generator to get much more intricate landforms, while still providing flatish areas. I've used one in the past, and it just requires the use of the generator beforehand in single player, and then load it to the world.
- Planning would be a must to keep everyone on the same page. There would be sub-projects, of course. For King's Landing, I'm sure there were people dedicated to the Red Keep or Dragonpit, while others were focused on the city buildings. People could work on what they wanted, so long as it was part of the "grand vision."
Anyways, just an idea. I'm sure it'd be a while before it could happen. There could also be alternatives, like it could be the newbie spawn world, or maybe instead of a whole world we just dedicate an area of Vetronia? Personally I'd love to see more construction in Vetropolis, but that would be even further down the road, maybe. There are a LOT of other priorities first, I know, but this is just food for thought. Thanks. 
9:10 am
Staff Alumni
October 20, 2011
Offline
I think this sounds like an interesting idea, I would be on board for working on something like this. I know Jon has some interest in the idea of using one of those world generators and I think these two ideas would tie together nicely.
My first inclination is that whatever this ends up being, it should be accessed from its own place within vetropolis rather than the portal building, something that makes the experience of going there more grand rather than utilitarian as the portal building is. What this made me think of, and I am not entirely sure why my brain made the correlation, is in the Bleach series, how the king of soul society lives in a palace that is accessible only to people with the key. So this project could effectively be a huge palace/otherworldly being's home or something to that effect.
With that being said, there are two portals in the portal building, so I think I would push for the OR being reset to a new temporary map, but with this becoming an additional secondary world that is purpose built. I think the idea of alternating the maps that get reset was a strong one, and while they may not get used much individually, it maximizes the time between resets, so if people do build something in one of them (ie, a mob farm, or a mining base) they know that it will be some time before that world is reset.
12:55 pm
September 18, 2011
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I also like this idea very much. The imagination to have one century's project the entire community is working on sounds fabulous!
But the problem I see is: If we realize it within a second world, we'll have to decide to either give it up one day when this world gets deleted again, or to keep it as a second permanent world. I'm not sure, if this can be acceptable even though there's still space in Vetronia.
However, why not inversely? Make a new small world for the beginner's starting and spawning point where everyone can set up his own individual little home, farm and mine to live a comfortable, unadventurous life in the abundance of his lands. And make Vetronia what it actually is, a pearl itself with a plenty and variety of georgous and epochal buildings and cities realized by the whole community. We could give an own typical sight to each region to "decentralize" the beauty of this world. We could regularly initiate contests about the prettiest, most fantastic projects where the winner team gains financal support for it. And, of course, we can - in community - satisfy our yearning for a world wonder project.
1:25 pm
Staff Alumni
October 23, 2011
Offline
I'm in total agreement with the general theme of this idea: communal building. I started Kerr Keep with TSWG because we both wanted to build something big with someone else, and Kerr Keep IS big and its still growing, but since Life slapped TSWG on the buttocks, I've been building alone. Its a bit different than what I originally imagined, but man, I'd hate to abandon it. Which is why I'm still building there.
I'd be building just as large in Vetronia but unressed stuff would get griefed there too fast, and I'm out of residences. But you give me the opportunity to build in a protected region and I can give you a city in almost no time. So if you guys ever decide to do this, or if anyone wants to embark on a big communal thing before this ever happens, please let me know. I'm down.
1:31 pm
Staff Alumni
October 23, 2011
Offline
Oh, and those screenshots? That's what I'm hoping to have Kerr Keep look like eventually. I'm getting there.
4:11 pm
August 16, 2011
Offline
I'm in full agreement, lwk. 
6:46 pm
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
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After talking with Pherian and Emulated in-game, it looks like we might actually try to do something in Vetronia. Which would be nice; it would remove the need for another world. We're now looking for locations that would work.
I suggested using this island: http://maps.veterancraft.net/?.....1919048679
This location is ideal, IMHO, because it contains plains, mountains, swamps, plenty of water, and is VERY close to Vetropolis, so it has great visibility prospects. Also as a definable island, it would be easy to establish clear boundaries.
I have my Yggdrasil Res there I can donate to the cause, and could make it part of the project very easily and gladly. There are a number of Res's that are owned by those who haven't played in well over a month, and a lot of old structures. Of those that are still "active," most are small or mere scrapes in the ground and Tony said that they could be bought out since no one seems really invested in that area.
Except, of course, for a seemingly invisible Res belonging to our eminent Senior Technician. Yep, frelling's house is on the island. frell, I would like to hear your thoughts on all this before proceeding with any sort of concepting.
The thought is that beyond a cohesive plan and vision, that there would certainly be special projects for individuals. Yggdrasil is one example. Tony, Pher, and I all thought that a massive city would be appropriate, with those special buildings as appropriate. Tony also mentioned that the old Turtle Bay Res's could be moved to this location to offset the Res cost to the players.
11:41 pm
Staff Alumni
June 3, 2012
Offline
As you already know, I brought up that idea before for the island and I'm more than happy to join in on the project if it decides to surface. Also, do you believe there will still be a bridge leading there? If so, I think the communal project would make a great way to introduce some of the building techniques the people of our server to showcase.
6:11 am
September 18, 2011
Offline
I will definitively help you, too! 
6:48 am
Staff Alumni
October 23, 2011
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I wandered off and found two areas that might be interesting so far. Neither has any residences at all. One is a hills biome with plenty of overhangs and whatnot, similar to Highmoor. I didn't bother planning that one out because I wasn't sure how much LWK wants to build ANOTHER Highmoor.
The other one I found is a swamp biome. I did this:
Basically, I think we can take the islands and make them into districts, connected by bridges, elevated above the water. Not quite Venice, but close, and we have the opportunity to elevate the land as needed through stepped roads and whatnot.
This is just a quick thought process as I wander the lands looking for a home for this project. You guys let me know if this is an area you'd be interested in.
7:27 am
Staff Alumni
October 20, 2011
Offline
Personally, the part that intrigued me was that it was going to be an entire developed and residenced world. (2000x2000 I believe LWK called out)
Doing the project within Vetronia makes it just another city and is not really interesting to me, but if it is to other people, then by all means carry on.
7:29 am
Staff Alumni
October 23, 2011
Offline
Another area. No residences. This is a highlands area similar to Highmoor, but with a natural harbor. It's north of Hyacinth.
7:30 am
Staff Alumni
October 23, 2011
Offline
Bonzai728 said
Personally, the part that intrigued me was that it was going to be an entire developed and residenced world. (2000x2000 I believe LWK called out)Doing the project within Vetronia makes it just another city and is not really interesting to me, but if it is to other people, then by all means carry on.
No reason we can't do both. This is a way for the ball to get rolling early and to "feel out" how good a communal project would play on the server. Might be a good test run before we allocate resources to a whole new world.
9:19 am
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
Offline
Great spots, Pher! I think any of those would work. I still would like to hear from frelling about his thoughts on the island option, too. IF we used the island, we could certainly preserve the property.
I also agree with Bonzai, that a small world, possibly with a fun terrain generation, should be on the table. Not only both, but there's really no reason why if we use Vetronia we can't have eventually multiple communal projects. Maybe one is more of a Venice, one more of a King's Landing city, perhaps one is designed to be a temple complex, etc.
One bit that might complicate this, but would require a LOT of discussion with meat, frell, and the rest of staff, was the question raised about whether it was time for Vetronia to be reset. Tony, Mack, and I were discussing a lot last night about the state of the server, and while we have a lot of donors, things just feel....old and worn. Slow, tired. The option then, as I understand it, would be to either:
- When the OR is reset, make it a new permanent map and keep Vetronia around for all time, or
- Create a new permanent map and after some transition time, retire Vetronia.
IF Vetronia would ever retire, I admittedly would be alright with it, ONLY so long as sufficient time (a month or two) was given to port materials and Residences over to the new world. I can deal with rebuilding, but I would want to bring all the materials I could from Highmoor, and I don't want to negate the Residences I spent so much money on.
The reason I bring up a possible map reset, is that in that event, a new Vetropolis could be a communal effort. Certainly established and controlled by meat, but also with many areas provided for the community to build off of. It's a thought, but reseting been brought up several times in-game now, so I thought I'd broach it as part of this discussion.
9:23 am
Staff Alumni
October 23, 2011
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I'm good with whatever. Just let me know where to start building.
9:42 am
Staff Alumni
October 20, 2011
Offline
I personally don't really want a reset of Vetronia, I don't see the point as its not like Vetronia is totally built out or as if all of the good spots are taken. I don't feel that people getting bored with their projects is a reason to reset the map. I love the historical aspect of the map not being reset in such a long time. If people feel that things need to be updated, then I could get on board with that (though spawn has undergone massive changes from when I started, many of these happening relatively recently while I wasn't playing very much. I went to spawn after not having been on for a while, and it was completely different. The fact that Vetronia has not been reset in so long is one of the things that defines Veterancraft, that permanence is something not found on very many other servers.
I think that the OR reset, should just be the OR reset, it is completely separate from any of the other plans and carries on with the concept of 2 temporary worlds that alternate being reset to allow for access to new materials as they become available and for an opportunity for exploration.
10:27 am
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
Offline
I do completely understand, Bonzai. I know there are those who feel otherwise, and I'm very much on the fence. Losing Highmoor would be a blow to the heart. I agree completely with your reasonings why a reset would not be desirable, and they're exactly why I'm not overtly in favor of this option yet.
To play Devil's Advocate, though, here are the reasons (as I see it) why it would make sense:
- Vetropolis, as great as it is, is actually quite small. There is a portion of the city that must be never touched, of course, but aside from revamp projects like the south river and the eventual northern filling, there is very little that can be done there. A more community-built spawn area with a larger focuse would encourage more players and give us a bigger "e-peen."
- While there are a lot of nice areas in Vetronia, and it is vastly untouched, it IS still a beta 1.8 map. There are features which the map lacks that people are interested in.
- A "fresh start" can sometimes re-invigorate some players who have grown tired of the server.
- Having both worlds open for a "transitional period" allowing players to move materials and Res over the the new world should prevent a lot of rage. Many players, myself included, have "woulda, coulda, shoulda" moments looking back at what they had built, and being able to demolish, port over, and start fresh can sometimes be a blessing.
- A new map could be an opportunity, if it's possible or desired, to make use of some custom terrain generation. Different biomes, like REAL mountains, high plateaus, true canyons, etc, can make a real difference in creating a world where people want to play. In particular, check out the Forge tool. I think this should be used for the OR reset in any case.
Anyways, that's why I'm on the fence for the issue. I can see both sides, and I'm just voicing opinions and options right now.
11:15 am
Staff Alumni
October 20, 2011
Offline
LightWarriorK said
- While there are a lot of nice areas in Vetronia, and it is vastly untouched, it IS still a beta 1.8 map. There are features which the map lacks that people are interested in.
- A "fresh start" can sometimes re-invigorate some players who have grown tired of the server.
- Having both worlds open for a "transitional period" allowing players to move materials and Res over the the new world should prevent a lot of rage. Many players, myself included, have "woulda, coulda, shoulda" moments looking back at what they had built, and being able to demolish, port over, and start fresh can sometimes be a blessing.
- A new map could be an opportunity, if it's possible or desired, to make use of some custom terrain generation. Different biomes, like REAL mountains, high plateaus, true canyons, etc, can make a real difference in creating a world where people want to play. In particular, check out the Forge tool. I think this should be used for the OR reset in any case.
Yes, Custom terrain generation would have to be utilized for me to see any value in this, although 90% of projects just flatten the land to do their project anyways...sooooo, yeah. Custom generation would be nice in the OR reset, it would reinforce the exploration side of things, but since most people end up just using the secondary worlds as places to harvest materials to make stuff in Vetronia, I don't feel it is a must.
I would obviously make do and figure out moving to a new world if that is what the decision was, but I have not been convinced yet that it is worth it.
11:19 am
Staff Alumni
October 23, 2011
Offline
OK, I am SUPER for that mod. I would LOVE all those biomes. Even if we nixed a few, that's fine, but man, what an awesome world it would be to have all of those to explore.
That being said, I don't think we should wipe out Vetronia any time soon. I think if we compiled a decent plan for spawn with Emu's idea for a newbie area, we'd be getting where we want to be. But I do think that the OR should be replaced soon with a new region, especially if it means we could use something like that new mod for biomes.
I'd also be all for a new permanent map that could be used IN ADDITION to keeping Vetronia. Kind of like a neighboring continent. Don't make it that big. And don't make it super simple to travel to, so that we don't have noobs heading over there immediately. But give us a place to build great things in other biomes that won't go away.
I know Kerr Keep will eventually get replaced (and I'm actually completely cool with that, it doesn't bother me). It was a decision we made because we really wanted to build a big snowy town. I don't think we should keep Seraph's Realm forever because, frankly, I don't think it's a very great map overall. It will be a good resource map for a long time, and that's really all the temporary realms will ever be. Which is good. It keeps people from pillaging the deserts of Vetronia.
So, in short:
- YES, please look into the new biome thing that LWK linked. That would be AWESOME.
- I am NOT in favor of getting rid of Vetronia.
- I AM in favor of generating a smaller, permanent map using the newer Biomes and calling it Vetronia's Sister Continent (Betty).
- I AM in favor of dumping the OR, and eventually SR, but always having a temp world for resource explotation.
11:48 am
September 18, 2011
Offline
I agree with Bonzai. For me privately, resetting Vetronia wouldn't encourage me to engage more on the server. It's the opposite. I would probably be off and could finally concentrate on my studies. A new world with a plenty of old materials? I can have that anywhere else, on any creative server.
In my opinion, deleting this wonderful map cannot be the weapon for fighting server tiredness. The answer must be: let's play together, let's build together, let's reduce individuality a bit to extend our horizont far away from our own odd ancient cities. If you personally have a belly full of them, burn them down, leave them. It's your choice. But don't force all the others who don't feel like you to do the same thing just due to your individual being tired. And actually: Who's tired? The server is full of people. I don't really see any tiredness.
Let's perform more multi-playing and public events and communal projects. Vetronia still offers much space and potential. I don't understand why we'd need such a harsh reset to realize it. Ok, it is a 1.8 map, however, what do we miss here? Emeralds? We just found out that they're pretty worthless. Villagers? Lilly pads? These problems could be solved in another way...
Well, just saying... 
@Pherian: I really like this pre-Venice swamp biome. I even already have an imagination of how the poor quarter could look like. 
EDIT: I see. I'm a slow writer. 
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