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8:55 pm
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
Offline
So, the way things currently stand, each user is currently allowed three shops via LocalShops. And for the vast, vast majority of the time, this seems fair and makes sense. However, in the development of Highmoor, I have found myself making a fairly nice little market, and I would love to have it be useful. The problem is, not including my active shop of The Drunken Creeper Tavern, I need 12 additional shops to fill it out. And making the entire Market one giant shop holds no appeal to me. The purpose of Highmoor is the experience. It's why people still love going shopping and not always getting everything from Amazon.com.
In addition, as Highmoor grows and there are little districts surrounding the castle, I would like there to be a shop for each to "anchor" the village center for the district.
To that end, I would like to make the following proposal:
- A limit of 3 shops should still be maintained as the default limit for all players
- Established players, who have been proven trustworthy with server resources, can request an increase in their personal limit, in writing (location of such request TBD) for judgement by meat/frell/staff
- Said increase would be determined by the NEED of the player. A request for 50 shops from someone with a single house in LeFay would not be reasonable.
- In ideal cases, requests for additional shops shall be accompanied by identification of a location for the shop (read: the shop is already built). Just like IRL, a business license is not applied for before the shop is built. At the very least, staff should be convinced that the player is serious about the shops.
- In order to not overly compete with Vetropolis, the player must have at least one shop within the Vetropolis shopping district or mall, which must be maintained.
As an example, I provide below my need for additional shops. I give you, the Highmoor Market:
Such and Sundry Misc Materials Shop:
The Great Blacksmith, Weapons and Armor with free repair facilities
The Green Grocer, food market
The Mechanists Shop, redstone and devices
The Occultist Shop, Nether and End materials, plus free-use Enchanting Table
The Bookworm, books and related components
My Precious....Stones, diamonds and emeralds, and other fancy things
The Apothecary Table, potion making, with free-use brewing stand:
The Farmer's Friend, seeds and saplings and such
The Masonry Block, stone materials
The Lumber Yard, wood materials
The Inside of the House, decorations and wool
Anyways, if this request doesn't pan out, it'll be alright, but the Market would be a lot better if it were even quasi-useful. Thanks!
8:59 pm
Staff Alumni
February 1, 2012
Offline
I support everything except the last portion. If a non Government owned city can maintain itself as the economic centre of VeteranCraft then so be it.
That being said I would suggest that instead of written requests we utilize this as a donor perk; allotting more shops per donor rank on a sliding scale.
Anthony Hughes
9:16 pm
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
Offline
Emulated said
I support everything except the last portion. If a non Government owned city can maintain itself as the economic centre of VeteranCraft then so be it.That being said I would suggest that instead of written requests we utilize this as a donor perk; allotting more shops per donor rank on a sliding scale.
Anthony Hughes
Yeah, my thought on that was that since Vetropolis is the spawn, it should always be maintained as the "center." But that's just me.
If as a donor perk, then I would suggest that greys still get their 3, Knights get 7, Bishops get 12, Ambassadors get 18, and Viceroys get 25. I don't know if that's practical, but I know 25 is just about how many I could possibly fit in Highmoor.
EDIT: For the record, I'm not sure I support it as a donor perk only. One word: sascha. Grey, but the best merchant we have.
10:08 pm
July 22, 2012
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Excellent request LWK,
I completely agree with your arguements and ideas. I also understand why we have limits to shops. For those of us who love running quality specialized shops, we are seriously restricted by these limits. Being specialized has its pros and cons:
Pros:
-easy to find items
-usually well stocked
-organized
-visually appealling
Cons:
-takes away shop slot
-limited types of items
Now, Emu (sorry man, i have to disagree) made a point about this becoming a donor perk... I can see how this could be an issue. Aside from this bringing revenue to the server, it really is not the answer. The reason why I say this is just because the donor comes out of pocket, does not mean he/she will not flood the server with even more poorly ran shops. I won't say any names, but there are several donors (and mods) that have some neglected shops.
Even though myself, and some others are just "grey names" (tight budget), we are still valueable members to the community and have strong economic influences to all shops on VC. I would be greatly disappointed if this decision was based upon server revenue, rather than player credentials.
Thank you.
10:38 pm
Staff Alumni
February 1, 2012
Offline
For the record, I'm not sure I support it as a donor perk only. One word: sascha. Grey, but the best merchant we have.
I understand that Sascha is a very proud business owner on VeteranCraft, and has managed to keep a number of well stocked shops going. That aside the fact remains that Sascha is from a rare breed of player - one we're not going to find very often. When someone donates to VeteranCraft they put their wallet on the line and show us that they are willing to give back to ensure the success of our little nook of the internet.
Yes it's viable to provide additional shops via an application process as you've suggested, however in doing so we would be ignoring the extra revenue boost this perk could mean from potential donors.
The reason why I say this is just because the donor comes out of pocket, does not mean he/she will not flood the server with even more poorly ran shops.
The same could be said about Residence areas. Those who conduct business efficiently and those who do not will continue to do so no matter what the limits are. Those poorly run shops will continue getting no customers, while the competitively priced and well stocked icons of our economy will be allowed to flourish.
I understand not everyone is going to agree with my point of view on this topic, but it remains that all extra privileges granted to players on VeteranCraft have been given via the perk/donor system for a reason. I fail to see outside of one example how an application system provides greater benefits than the existing donor system, and I cannot support the exception being the rule.
All aside I would perhaps support this more if it were suggested as a donor perk with the possibility for application under special circumstance.
Anthony Hughes
10:44 pm
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
Offline
Emulated said
All aside I would perhaps support this more if it were suggested as a donor perk with the possibility for application under special circumstance.
That sounds perfectly reasonable.
7:14 am
Knight
November 3, 2012
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I'm nowhere near the builder the rest of you are. I'll openly admit that. I have a small village out in the middle of nowhere with no ship/portal access or anything. I hold out no hopes that any shop I built there would see any traffic whatsoever and I've never planned on using the slots I have.
That having been said, I can see that LWK's put alot of thought and effort into building this, not just as a row of shops but as part of an overall larger build and full market as well. I can respect that effort and I support him in getting more slots for his market. If nothing else, if his effort at expanding his slots ultimately falls through, he's more than welcome to have my own shop slots (if they're transferrable that way) toward furthering his market. I won't miss them and he can use them more than I...
Good luck with your market, LWK. 
7:56 am
June 20, 2011
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We've actually talked about adding more shops as a donor perk, and since the issue is now brought fresh again, we should probably dust this idea off and consider it again.
I understand non-donors' concern with 'fairness' when it comes to donor perks, but the simple fact is, without donors, you wouldn't have anything in VeteranCraft because it wouldn't exist. And without perks, we'd have 10% of the donors- it's just a fact.
That said, I am open to suggestions of how to improve.
1. It would require regular players to have no more than 3 (still). Simply because this limits the cleanup of non-maintained shops from players who come and go.
2. Players with many shops would have to be limited for the above reason. Will all donors maintain all their shops? No. But the fact they're contributing financially helps us justify the time cleaning it up.
3. The permissions in VeteranCraft are tied to donor and staff groups. If we made some class of citizen that wasn't a donor but had a different config file (to allow for more shops), that would probably over-complicate things and make things a pain to manage.
I would hope a capitalist like Sascha would understand the economics of real-world as applied to managing VC as well, and not think we're trying to hold him down. If anything, Sascha, you prove that a non-donor has the ability to gain great wealth.
After typing all the above, I had a novel idea which I will discuss with staff....hmmm.... I think it could solve these issues.
10:43 am
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
Offline
meatbawllz said
After typing all the above, I had a novel idea which I will discuss with staff....hmmm.... I think it could solve these issues.
I am suddenly giddy with anticipation.
12:16 pm
August 18, 2011
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I'm glad to see that JCShops - formerly LocalShops - is being considered more valuable these days. It only strengthens my belief that it was a step in the right direction. I'll preface the rest with this "Its just Java, anything is possible."
Unlike Residence, JCShops currently does not have the ability to dynamically change attributes based on donor levels (i.e. permission groups). While it could be changed, it would be a patch on top of another patch and not conducive to our larger centralized configuration management plan.
I see the need that LWK has raised. It is a major undertaking; for I see that managing more than a couple individual shops could easily become an administrative nightmare. I like the idea that each shop is specialized and has a limited set "wares" specific to its nature. I'm starting to think alone the lines of another request; that a shop has the ability to have more than one location. If that could be coupled with an ability to define an inventory subset applicable to a location, it would offer the ability to have multiple distinct shops, but still manageable from a central location. That would be the direction that I would go in.
Having said that, implementation is a different story. While we've performed some much needed upgrades to JCShops, there is still a lot of work that needs to be done. Current efforts include code clean up and migrating shop inventories and configurations to a database.
One available workaround is to partner up with a couple of other players who would provide other shops. Then again, that is its own can of worms. I'll have to think more about this to see if there are other solutions without detracting from the work that already needs to be done.
1:15 pm
June 20, 2011
Offline
I wasn't aware the number of shops wasn't already attributed to the permissions configs. But the idea of 'branches' of a shop is an idea. Another possiblity would be is if we could just allow all players unlimited shops but increase the shop setup fee exponentially with each added one. For example, 500 shillings for the first 3, then the next one is 5,000, then the next one is 10,000 then 50,000 then 100,000 and so on. As to limit the 'scatter' of unmanaged shops. The only ones who would go that far would be those who have more skin in the game. Just an idea. Not even sure that's simple to implement or if it would require a ton of headaches for frelling.
EDIT: The prices above are simply filler. If we were to do something like this we'd come up with reasonable rates that make sense so don't nitpick the prices too much. 
1:50 pm
August 18, 2011
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I like this better than just being based on donor levels. It allows others to be industrious and acquire more shop slots. Furthermore, I'd see this equally applicable to additional shops or shop "branches". Again, this is something that JCShops can't do out-of-the-box, but its a feature that is permissions-independent and would be more of an enhancement than a patch.
2:34 pm
meatbawllz said
Another possiblity would be is if we could just allow all players unlimited shops but increase the shop setup fee exponentially with each added one. For example, 500 shillings for the first 3, then the next one is 5,000, then the next one is 10,000 then 50,000 then 100,000 and so on. As to limit the 'scatter' of unmanaged shops. The only ones who would go that far would be those who have more skin in the game. Just an idea. Not even sure that's simple to implement or if it would require a ton of headaches for frelling.
I like this idea best. It seems fair for all players.
3:04 pm
Staff Alumni
October 23, 2011
Offline
I don't even use shops and I still think Meat's idea is reasonable. You might even consider such a thing (if it's reasonably easy to implement) for Residence as well. Just a thought.
4:19 pm
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
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I agree, meat, that is a great idea.
4:57 pm
July 22, 2012
Offline
Sascha is happy....
5:02 pm
June 20, 2011
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Pherian said
I don't even use shops and I still think Meat's idea is reasonable. You might even consider such a thing (if it's reasonably easy to implement) for Residence as well. Just a thought.
That's a great idea... rather than having 10c per block, once you reach limits, price per block doubles each time. Could be something to consider down the road.
8:17 pm
Staff Alumni
June 3, 2012
Offline
frelling said
I'm starting to think alone the lines of another request; that a shop has the ability to have more than one location. If that could be coupled with an ability to define an inventory subset applicable to a location, it would offer the ability to have multiple distinct shops, but still manageable from a central location. That would be the direction that I would go in.
I've thought about mentioning this as well but I thought it was already mentioned in another thread. Anyways, I do believe this would be more appealing to me personally if I'm able to have a shop in Highmoor as well and having it reference the same inventory as in my Vetropolis shop.
10:03 am
Viceroy
Senior Mod
June 1, 2012
Offline
Dalferes said
frelling said
I'm starting to think alone the lines of another request; that a shop has the ability to have more than one location. If that could be coupled with an ability to define an inventory subset applicable to a location, it would offer the ability to have multiple distinct shops, but still manageable from a central location. That would be the direction that I would go in.
I've thought about mentioning this as well but I thought it was already mentioned in another thread. Anyways, I do believe this would be more appealing to me personally if I'm able to have a shop in Highmoor as well and having it reference the same inventory as in my Vetropolis shop.
Agreed, I would love to see this as well. For as many shops as I would like to have, the primary reason is because everyone else is so limited in shops that it would be difficult to get others to occupy them. I would personally rather have 25 shops spread around Highmoor that are hard to keep tabs on, than have just a spattering here and there since no one would want them. But if players can establish "branches," well, then I could consolidate my Market down to just 2-3 shops of my own, and allow others to have their businesses there as well.
10:42 pm
November 25, 2012
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I came to suggest something and see meat pretty much hit on it already. Rather then making it a donor perk allow all players up to say maybe 10 shops but the cost per shop just goes up crazy amounts so that people who invest in getting more shops will have to be seriously interested undertaking such a cost. 4th shop 25k, 5th 75k, 6th 150k etc.
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