Enderman Farm. Should it be protected? Discuss and vote. | Suggestion Box | Forum

A A A

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 4 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS dirt
Enderman Farm. Should it be protected? Discuss and vote.
Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
January 27, 2014
12:37 am
SlocumFamily2
Member
Members


Knight
Forum Posts: 223
Member Since:
January 13, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

*****

** First and Foremost:  After talking with several people (including SR Mods) during chat, it was decided this discussion would be valuable.  When responding, please format your opinion thoughtfully, tactfully and respectfully.  You will be taken more seriously if you phrase your thoughts intelligently.  It is my hope this conversation be as mature and civilized as possible. Thanks. **

I know many people may not know me well, but I feel I have made some friends here over the past month or so.  I also represent my husband and daughter who also play on VC.  We had resisted public servers for a long time until hearing about VC and it's mature and friendly people.

Hopefully my presentation will be neutral as possible, posing equal arguments.

 

*****

Several times recently there has been griefing in the Enderman Farm part of The End.  Destruction of chests, floor pieces (which lead to a fall out of the world), Enchantment Tables and bookshelves, and, the Enderman Trap itself. Currently, the trap has been mostly destroyed and must be repaired by someone who knows redstone and the Trap construction concept. As the rules exist now, none of these actions are illegal.

 

This leads to the question:   Should the Enderman Trap area -- or simply the trap itself -- be protected?  If so, to what extent?  And why?

*Please note, this is not a discussion on whether PvP should be allowed. That is not up for debate.  PvP will always remain active in every area of the Nether and The End, including the areas directly next to the Trap.*

 

After much discussion in Chat, the following options were presented:

(1) The rule should stand.  Griefing is allowed everywhere in The End.  The existence of the Enderman trap is not a guarantee.  Any entrance into The End is at your own risk.

 

(2) The rule should be altered so that the Enderman Trap, and the area around it (to the stairs), should be protected with a no griefing rule. PvP is still allowed in all areas.

 

(3) The rule should be altered so that only the Trap itself is be protected.  Any bookshelves, chests, enchantment tables, etc that are left in The End are subject to theft/griefing.

 

(4) If the rule is altered to protect the Trap, it is still not the Government's responsibility to maintain it.  Should the Trap break due to failure or griefing, the people in the community who want the Trap will need to come together to repair it.

 

(5) If the Trap exists it should be protected.  If it is not to be protected, it should not exist, therefore reducing conflict.

 

Arguments For and Against Altering the Rule:

FOR:  The existence of the Trap should not be the decision of one person (now that the creator is off the server).  The Trap should be protected so that one person, in a mood to grief, cannot change the current gameplay for everyone.

FOR:  The Trap is valuable to players who need to be able to accrue XP points for better quality tools and armor.  This helps them feel they are not moving at a slow pace when comparing themselves to players who are long-term and/or who donate the larger amounts (and can therefore afford to immediately buy high-quality tools and armor).  On a server where building/mining is the main goal, being able to progress at a reasonable pace is motivating.

FOR:  The Trap has come to be seen as a resource.  Many people use and value it.  It is an important element to the VeteranCraft server and it's gameplay options -- just as mods are. 

FOR:  When joining a \"Mature Server\" there is a \"good faith\" expectation that people will respect others and their choice of gameplay.  It is not anticipated that a bored player will destroy something the majority of players like and use.

 

AGAINST: The Trap makes getting XP points far too easy.  You should not be able to accrue points so fast, without mining, smelting, etc.  Many people want things to be easy, and this is not the essence of the game.

AGAINST:  Griefing is fun.  Part of the fun of a server game is creating challenges and obstacles for other players.  It is a choice of gameplay style.

AGAINST:  The Trap is not a guarantee.  You do not need the Trap to function in the game.  XP points can be accrued in other ways.

 

**********

Please present your thoughts/arguments below, and let us know if you think the Trap should stay and/or if the rules regarding it should change.

Please also be aware that even if the majority say they want the rule to change, this does not mean it will definitely happen.  The Owner of the server must be consulted and agree.

January 27, 2014
12:59 am
SlocumFamily2
Member
Members


Knight
Forum Posts: 223
Member Since:
January 13, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

My response:

Obviously, this is going to be very similar to the "for" arguments above, because I was one of the main people in chat having the discussion.  I also speak for my husband (SlocumFamily) and my daughter (Lady_Lillian) who are upset that the trap was griefed and is now not functioning.

I do not play Minecraft to be annoyed.  I play to build, mine, etc.  

This is why, prior to learning about VC, I had zero interest in playing on a public server.  I wanted a Mature Server, where people would act respectfully towards each other.  When a player randomly decides to destroy something because he/she is bored, I feel like I am playing with children.  If I wanted that, there are plenty of other places I could go.

Additionally, it is known that the trap was griefed by someone who "thought it was fun."   Who, besides that player, was it fun for?  I found no one else who thought it was fun.  Why should one person, in a random mood, be able to affect the quality of everyone's gameplay?

 

When I found the trap I thought "Wow!  So this is how people are doing it." And I felt like I had discovered the secret to moving forward at a faster pace.  Finally I could attempt to have a Fortune pickaxe, etc.

I do not like things to be too easy in this game.  If I decide to make my town out of spruce, I am not going to buy out all the logs in the stores or ask for it to be given to me.  I am going to find spruce trees, cut them down (replant), grab their saplings, and then start my own tree farm as well as continue to search for trees in un-residenced areas.  I don't want to be able to build a city in a week.  But I do want to be able to, with the help of a Fortune pickaxe, gather, oh, 20 diamonds during a day of mining. Especially when it is commonly known that others have hundreds of diamonds (thanks to shillings and/or Fortune III) -- to the point where they can make buildings out of diamond blocks.  I recently built a 4-tier pyramid for a beacon, and I mined every single one of those iron blocks.  When I mine I gather everything -- even if I don't know what I will need it for -- just so I can build what I want.  This takes time and is definitely not making things too easy for me.  Every piece of wood, obsidian, sand, stone, quartz, etc was mined by me over time.  I don't want it to be easy.  I DO want to have fun.

Having a quality ax is not going to make my game play go at an unreasonably fast pace.  But it will make the game more satisfactory for me.

I am choosing the style of my gameplay.  And I choose to want XP points so I can survive a zombie attack, and get a bit extra quartz in the Nether.

My vote is that the Trap should be protected in some way.  Even if it is only the Trap itself.  People who mess with the blocks, redstone, or any function of the Trap should be subjected to a ban of some sort.  That way, one person cannot cause destruction that has the potential to affect everyone.

January 27, 2014
1:17 am
Palthor
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
March 16, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

To all VeteranCraftPlayers,
 

If you haven't heard already you will shortly. Yes I (Palthor) personally went to the Ender Ender and removed the majority of the spawning platforms along with all the redstone, pistons, and most of the tripwire. My reasons for doing so include:

  • Jumpstart a discussion on whether or not the server truly wants a dedicated / protected server xp farm.
  • To show those that continue to take things for others that things can be taken from them just as easily.
  • To hopefully although doubtful stimulate the economy in the area of enchantments and xp related items.
  • To as some have requested put all players on equal footing. (Everyone is now free to rebuild or make their own as they wish)

Many may feel that these reason are inadequate or just plain wrong. I would like to remind everyone that what I did was legal and that I do not regret my decision. I also stated I am more than willing to help whoever decides to rebuild it once the debate on protection is decided. Lastly I have not profited in anyway from this action (may have actually hurt my bottom line more than anything) because everything I collected was placed in the free spawn chests.
 

Lastly, I will start off the discussion with my opinion on an ender ender xp farm. My opinion is that I feel it should be an area of great risk (death, pvp, griefing, etc…) and with that great reward (xp, books, pearls, etc…). I see this as the only area of the server that truly has risk. And you may say well you have /god and donor perks. My response to that is I would like to remind everyone that this is the first month I have had any donor perk and although I am enjoying messing around with them it was not my means of wealth. I currently own Palmanova which received around 100k shillings in donations and other than that I was forced to mine, dig, and collect enough random material to afford the other 180k shillings required to protect the area so far. And to this day I still have my donor allowance…This should take time and be some what challenging to get otherwise we mine as well put the server on creative and go at it.

I leave the rest of this thread to all other players of VeteranCraft to place their opinions on the matter, so as a server a decision can be presented to the administrators. 

 

To those that truly know me I am not a bad guy,

Palthor

Duke of Palmanova

January 27, 2014
1:19 am
Emulated
Canada!
Member
Members


Staff Alumni
Forum Posts: 3206
Member Since:
February 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I've merged the two threads concerning this topic.

Anthony Hughes

#Vetra
January 27, 2014
6:51 am
SlocumFamily2
Member
Members


Knight
Forum Posts: 223
Member Since:
January 13, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Uhg, I hate internet drama.  I am too old and cranky for this.

 

I kinda feel like the Attorney for the Defense, so please allow me a bit of a retort regarding the Trap making things too easy -- which also happens to make a bit more of my "for" point:

I had never been on a public server before.  When I started playing here, and found out about all the mods, my first (and continuing) thought was/is "Wow, this sure makes the game easier."

Personally, I think getting diamonds from digging is far more advantageous than getting XP at a faster rate than a Spider or Skeleton trap. But no one has a problem with the mods. If anything, people want more.

I may be wrong, but I also don't think that having many people obtain XP at a slower rate will boost the VC economy. 

Unless there is some big secret being shared among other players (which wouldn't surprise me), it seems the only way to make money is by donating, selling in the stores, or voting.  I've done all three, and I can't even conceive of how people are able to accrue such huge shilling amounts.  In fact, the only way I COULD gain enough resources to sell more, and therefore make more money (which I could then spend in stores), is to (you guessed it) have a better quality tools, that enable me to work more efficiently.  If there is some other way to make money, I would love to be in on it.  The stores already seem over saturated, and I don't really see a point in making one.  Even so, I don't see how one could provide a major income.

 

As a personal aside:  Two of the money making ways simply don't work for me/us.  We can't afford to donate larger amounts (this is not a criticism to those who can, just a personal statement about gameplay comparisons).  And, for some reason, the voting servers seem to confuse us SlocumFamily players.  It tells me and my husband that we have already voted, even if we haven't.  So, normally, only one of us gets some money for voting -- if at all. (And yes, 24 hours have passed.)   This is the main reason I usually forget to even try.  I don't know if other players have had this voting issue or not.

As for the perk of getting rich by donating larger amounts.  I do, indeed, think that is an unfair advantage.  However, that said, I see the business need for it.  People running this server should not have to pay for it's upkeep out of their own pockets.  Further, for such an effort, they have every right to make a bit of money off it.  I doubt anyone is getting rich.  The Catch 22 is that there is no real incentive to donate a larger amount without such perks as shillings and God mode (which are the major game changers).  

In short, though I think the large donation perks create an "elite" level of players, I definitely see the need for it to exist.

January 27, 2014
9:22 am
LightWarriorK
Aelfheim, Arda
Moderator
Members


Viceroy


Senior Mod
Forum Posts: 2154
Member Since:
June 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

*stretches fingers, cracks knuckles*

I'm known for making epicly long posts, so please bear with me.Smile

I was present for the discussion in-game, and while I did not drive the conversation, I did speak up a little bit.  My position is probably known to be for not changing the rule and to not protect the Ender Ender.  Personally, I love what Palthor did.  I hope it's done every day.  My reasons for this will become clear in the post below.

First, let me make one thing clear.  It was NOT a donor who griefed the Enchanting table and other valuables around the Ender this past time, leading to this discussion.  I was online when it happened, and it was greylings (non-donors), two of them, who did it.  I will not betray their trust, as that is not my place to do so.

 

First, a little background on my play style, so everyone can know my mindset and where I come from.

I've never used the Ender Ender.  Personally, I have no need for it.  And that has NOTHING to do with my donor status.  The only benefit being a donor has when it comes to xp is /xpvault, which is less relevant now that there are enchanted books.  In fact, in many ways enchanted books trump /xpvault, because you can pick and choose specific enhancements you've saved up.  The only real benefit /xpvault has for donors is that we don't have to enchant right when we hit the desired xp level, and can bank for doing enchantments in mass.  But we don't gather xp any faster than other players.

My XP is built up in ways that every player has access to: mining, smelting, breeding, killing.  It's more than I've ever needed.  I have never understood the need for mob farms, iron farms, gold farms, or the Ender Ender.  Personally, I think it's a lazy and n00bish way to play.  XP is easy to get just by playing the game.

Those that know me know that I'm not one to buy massive amounts of stuff from shops.  Yes, I have funds from my donation that in theory would allow me to buy whatever I want, but that takes away from the gameplay of Minecraft.  I find shops useful for shedding myself of excess materials that would otherwise go unused (mostly my massive quantities of iron), and for bolstering the end of a project, like if I find myself a few stacks of logs short for what I need.  For a Viceroy, though, I'm actually very poor.  I have spent nearly all of my funds Residencing Highmoor and Yggdrasil, and I still have millions worth of Res needs for both of those projects.

 

Now before I get into the rest of the points, I want to address this one first:

FOR:  The Trap is valuable to players who need to be able to accrue XP points for better quality tools and armor.  This helps them feel they are not moving at a slow pace when comparing themselves to players who are long-term and/or who donate the larger amounts (and can therefore afford to immediately buy high-quality tools and armor).  On a server where building/mining is the main goal, being able to progress at a reasonable pace is motivating.

I'm afraid I have to speak as a Senior Moderator here, and not as a player.  There is an important distinction to make here, which is critical to understand, and not really up for debate.  Newer players and non donators are not moving slower.  They are moving at normal speeds, your "reasonable pace."  To say they feel like they're moving slower sounds like they're being penalized for being new, or for not donating.  This is not the case.  Non-donators and new folk have the entirety of VeteranCraft at their fingers, the only limitation being the time and effort they put into it.  The Greyling experience is normal Minecraft (with the addition of McMMO and Residence and such, naturally), and we feel that VeteranCraft does better than anywhere else at providing that experience in a good and mature atmosphere.

Now yes, donors get perks that speed things up, like salaries, tp, etc.  And long-term members are established and are able to do more.  To that, we can only say that they have earned those rights with their money to support the server, and time spent here playing Minecraft.  We aren't going to marginalize their contribution to the server by accelerating the newbie experience.  Yes, those who donate or have been playing a long time ARE going to be able to get or buy high-quality items right away.  That's only fair (the adult "fair" of you get what you earn, not the child "fair" of "he has one so I deserve one too").  [blunt]Honestly, whenever anyone says "of course you're going to say that, you're a donor," I negate the entire argument as the Have-not's being envious of the Have's for something they didn't earn.  Personally, I've been here for over a year and a half, and have dumped $550 in that time to help it stay online.  I'm not going to feel guilty about being able to buy a pickaxe faster than others, nor will I listen to those who try to place guilt on me. [/blunt]

 

Ok, my opinions on the rest of the points:

The End (and Nether) have always been open PvP and open to grief and theft.  They weren't set up to be a haven for griefers, although some do use it for that purpose.  Rather, they were set up like that so that there were places that were still....less safe.  More prone to disaster.  Let's face it, VeteranCraft IS a Survival Server.  A large Residence with -monsters is going to be very well protected, and there's not a lot of risk.  As players play, the risk becomes less.  That's natural.  The rules to allow PvP and Griefing in the End and Nether were made to 1) keep that level of risk up, and 2) keep players from being to comfortable in areas where they shouldn't be comfortable.  Even Staff give up their God in the Nether, and ALL perks in the End.

The End was NEVER meant to be a haven for xp gatherers.  Yes, Endermen are good for xp, and if you can survive there you can rack up a lot.  The exploit found to make the Ender Ender....well, that's all it is, an exploit.  It's not a server resource, and I don't believe the server should endorse it by protecting it.  Personally I'd rather The End be shut down when the Dragon is dead, as opposed to protecting it.  But that's just me.

I'm going to reiterate something I said earlier.  Those using the Ender Ender are lazy.  It's a cheap way to bypass the game's mechanics.  Is it legal?  Sure, just as any non-server-resource-hogging farm is legal.  But it IS lazy.  My own opinion is that if some people want to keep it running at the risk of losing it, then fine.  And if others want to knock it down, that's fine too.  

I suppose my preferred option is #1, then.  More specific rebuttal opinions:

FOR:  The existence of the Trap should not be the decision of one person (now that the creator is off the server).  The Trap should be protected so that one person, in a mood to grief, cannot change the current gameplay for everyone.

First, meatballz is not off the server.  He's simply been absent for longer than we would have forseen.  His (and frelling's) word is still final.  The Ender itself is a change in the current gameplay, a fairly recent exploit to the server.  Players on VeteranCraft got along just fine without it before.  It's not like experience in The End isn't available at all times....you said yourself you don't want to make things too easy....why not run around The End killing Endermen like everyone did before the Ender was built?  That's what I've always done when needing pearls.

FOR:  When joining a "Mature Server" there is a "good faith" expectation that people will respect others and their choice of gameplay.  It is not anticipated that a bored player will destroy something the majority of players like and use.

 I saw this argument last night, and still see it, as an "all or nothing" argument.  That just because there are areas that have had legal griefing for over two years are annoying some players, that suddenly it's harming our image as a mature server.  I honestly don't think it does.  We've established the rules very clearly regarding how things are in The Nether and The End.  Griefing IS allowed there.  Always has been.  To me, accepting that is mature.  It allows folks to cut loose a little bit within the strict confines of the rules.  Look at it this way: If VeteranCraft was a "company picnic," The Nether and End would be like the pick-up football game.  Does having a pick-up game make the picnic less mature?  No, especially if that game were announced ahead of time as part of picnic.  To me, what is less mature would be if someone joined that pick-up game then started complaining that it was too rough and the rules needed to change.  If they didn't want to play rough, they should have stayed out of the game, and you can't blame those who were playing the game as they were.  VeteranCraft set up The End to be rough.  Simply because some players built a profitable contraption there doesn't justify neutering The End by protecting it.

AGAINST: The Trap makes getting XP points far too easy.  You should not be able to accrue points so fast, without mining, smelting, etc.  Many people want things to be easy, and this is not the essence of the game.

As I've said, it's a lazy method.  However I'm not saying folks shouldn't accrue xp that fast, but rather to expect xp that fast AND expect to be able to do it safely in The End without fear or risk of it being destroyed....that's where I take issue.

AGAINST:  Griefing is fun.  Part of the fun of a server game is creating challenges and obstacles for other players.  It is a choice of gameplay style.

There's really two different thoughts here.  I don't find griefing fun.  I don't even do it where it's allowed.  Heck, I don't even PvP.  But I DO agree that challenge and obstacles are important for the more difficult areas of Minecraft, which is why I agree with allowing PvP, theft, and grief in these limited areas.  I've died several times from traps randomly set by other players in The Nether, and my first structure I ever built in The Nether way back when was griefed all to hell.  I lost a LOT of materials that day.  But I can't hold it against them....I knew what I was getting into when I started building there.

AGAINST:  The Trap is not a guarantee.  You do not need the Trap to function in the game.  XP points can be accrued in other ways.

I think this goes back to "The Ender as a Resource" argument.  It isn't.  It's an exploit.  And that should never be guaranteed.  Rather, The End itself IS a resource.  We provide The End, with protected portals, to allow players to use The End.  The expectation for resource usage is that players will hunt Endermen the normal way one hunts mobs, not exploit the game's mechanics the way the Ender does.

I believe that's all I have.  Except for my bit above on the donor stuff, this is all my opinion, though seen through SM-colored glasses.  Please everyone, keep in mind that while we can debate this all we want, this isn't something the community will decide on.  As in all things, meatbawllz and frelling have the final say.

 

SlocumFamily2, I'll refrain from responding to the latest reply.  My opinion is noted above, but if this is going to end up being a "this comes down to donor inequity" argument, we might as well stop talking about this now.  If you do see the need for donations, and you accept that the perks are what they are, then it's best to leave all that out of your argument.  We CAN look into what's going on with the voting....it's likely that there is a bug somewhere.  

Please post a separate thread in Support so frelling and mudwog can see it.  If we can figure out what's going on, you three should be able to pull in 27k shillings each month just from voting, which isn't bad at all.

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
January 27, 2014
9:33 am
MikeB1974
Member

Ambassador

Members
Forum Posts: 72
Member Since:
November 9, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The first time I set foot in the end after finding a portal, I had about 90 seconds of time to look around before I woke up at the spawn point and someone asking me "Do you want your bow back?" "Do I have to go to the end to get it?" "Yes" "Keep it, I’ll make another one." I knew full well that the end was pvp. I took my chance and have never gone back. I don't like pvp, having had my fill of it in world of Warcraft for the last 10 years. I'm not saying this as a complaint, just a fact. It's a pvp zone, you take your chances, so don't complain what happens.

As for gaining xp, I mine. I mine anything and everything that gives xp, plus I smelt not using an auto-smelter so I get the xp. Again, I smelt everything that can be smelted for xp. I've accumulated a large number of books, armor and tools with good enchants on them. Every 30 levels I enchant something, a book, tool or armor.

Money. I'm not a donor, mostly because I still pay for my Warcraft account, when/if I decide to cancel it I will most likely shift that money to paying for donor perks here. Money is tight, so I understand SlocumFamily's point on that issue. I've been on the server 2 months now and have earned close to 30k shillings. I've done this by watching chat. When people ask for items that I might have, I send a pm and negotiate a price. When people have asked for work to be done, same thing. And I vote daily, although I can see SlocumFamily's problem here, I have encountered that particular problem before as well, so they are not the only ones, but I just roll with it and try again at another time.

I'm a packrat by nature so I save everything, even cobble. Everything in this game has a use at some point. And those who have the money are sometimes willing to trade money for time. It works out to the benefit of those involved.

Now having had my little soapbox rant of tooting my own horn, I am not in favor of a enderman farm, the end is still a pvp zone and if you go there to use it, you take your chances.

January 27, 2014
11:57 am
nak1030
Chicago, IL
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 96
Member Since:
April 27, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

SlocumFamily2 said
And, for some reason, the voting servers seem to confuse us SlocumFamily players.  It tells me and my husband that we have already voted, even if we haven't.  So, normally, only one of us gets some money for voting -- if at all. (And yes, 24 hours have passed.)   This is the main reason I usually forget to even try.  I don't know if other players have had this voting issue or not.

I have had this issue before, and I assume that it is due to the fact that your family wifi is all linked to one IP Address. The IP is the string of numbers used to identify the internet router used by your household. Since all three of you probably use the same internet, only one account can vote per day.  I have experimented with other methods to be able to vote on multiple accounts using the same internet, but at this point I have not encountered any solutions. My sister also has a Minecraft account, and she uses the same internet connection as I do. This issue is simply because the voting site does not recognize that you are voting from another account/computer, rather the fact that the same IP Address is trying to vote again but it has already voted in the past 24 hours.

Da Bears!
January 27, 2014
1:18 pm
LightWarriorK
Aelfheim, Arda
Moderator
Members


Viceroy


Senior Mod
Forum Posts: 2154
Member Since:
June 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

nak1030 said I have had this issue before, and I assume that it is due to the fact that your family wifi is all linked to one IP Address. The IP is the string of numbers used to identify the internet router used by your household. Since all three of you probably use the same internet, only one account can vote per day.  I have experimented with other methods to be able to vote on multiple accounts using the same internet, but at this point I have not encountered any solutions. My sister also has a Minecraft account, and she uses the same internet connection as I do. This issue is simply because the voting site does not recognize that you are voting from another account/computer, rather the fact that the same IP Address is trying to vote again but it has already voted in the past 24 hours.

This is highly likely to be the reason, thanks nak.  I didn't even think about the IP Address.

If it's possible, maybe try voting from a remote location, like work, library or school?  These places should have different IP Addresses.  If you can vote from a remote location, then it would certainly be the IP Address causing the problem.

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
January 27, 2014
1:31 pm
SlocumFamily2
Member
Members


Knight
Forum Posts: 223
Member Since:
January 13, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Thanks for the info on the voting.  At least we now know what the issue is.

 

As for the discussion:

I am surprised at how many people are saying they never used the enderman farm.  I had gotten the direct impression it was a place used by all.  One reason is because it seemed -- based on chat conversations -- that many people never mine. 

One conversation in particular was about excavation diamond perks.  There were about three others talking, and they all said they couldn't remember the last time they mined for diamonds.  That, and the fact that I am continually surprised at how much iron, coal, etc is still on the surface in some areas, led me to believe only new people (or people that enjoy it, like me) actually mined.

(Heck, I'll get in moods where I just go break things (aka mine blocks) and gather gather gather.)

 

So...like other players...I mine...I gather...I slaughter... I smelter.  And I like to do all those things.  It adds variety to the game, and, as I said previously, I don't like things to be too easy.

Frankly, I find getting diamonds from digging dirt makes the game far easier than than the XP farm does.  But I am not complaining about the mods.  No one is.

 

I like the option of the enderman farm, and would like it to stay.  But only if it is protected.  Currently it seems to be fodder for players who just (to be blunt) feel like being jerks.  And that concept, in essence, is what I mean when I talk about expectations of a mature server.  The immaturity some players are showing in their "legal" ability to grief.  (Note I am not talking about the destruction of the trap, I am talking about stuff that repeatedly happened before in the area.)

I've tried to make my argument without saying this previously. Because, frankly, I can't think of a nice way to say "We need a way to not let people be rude jerks 'legally'."

January 27, 2014
4:07 pm
Miba
United States
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 20
Member Since:
February 2, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Since you expressed some concern about possible SM bias, I'd like to say as a non-mod I agree with each point you made LWK. I think you covered pretty much everything and I'd like to address something else.

SlocumFamily2 I like to see everyone having a good time. And I want to say I understand where you're coming from. I've been on this server a little over a year, and for about half of that time donating wasn't in my budget either. I was also in the a similar boat with voting. Jaysea and I shared an IP address (we happened to be aware of the IP issue) and he thought it was hilarious to sneak on and beat me to it everyday. So as a shilling starved individual going into large builds by other players, I couldn't help thinking things like "My god I'm never going to be able to do this, how could I possible catch up, it's going to take me forever." It was a bit overwhelming.

It took changing my perspective and realizing it wasn't a race. I didn't have as many diamonds or valuables as other players but it didn't matter because gathering those things, earning the levels, digging, cutting, mining, all those things that you enjoy, are part of what makes Minecraft fun for me. That little bit of challenge, the risk, and the bragging rights of saying I did this the considerably more time consuming way because I'm nuts! If I didn't enjoy these things and I was just going compare my progress to other players I realized I should just be playing creative (because who doesn't want unlimited beacons?).

I was there for the entire in game conversation, and even despite you flat out expressing annoyance, I could tell you were peeved. Change your perspective a bit, enjoy snagging what exp and items you were able to get from the End farm! Talk about a bonus! Don't know anything about redstone? Me neither... but here's a tutorial that shows how to remake it step by step. It would definitely be a learning experience to fix it with a little bit of danger thrown in. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....8e1rEHNtUE

 

For me it's like Palthor said, an area of great risk and great reward where all players, new or old, can be on an even playing field. Will it last? Will someone come and kill you? Who knows but think of that as part of the fun. If you can't, I wouldn't venture into the End or Nether because playing a game while annoyed just isn't fun. Instead feel free to contact me in game. I have several spawners (one double zombie spawner!) I'd be more than happy to let you use for getting experience. Of course they aren't as fast but there's also no risk involved ;)

January 27, 2014
4:21 pm
jaysea
Crematoria
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 22
Member Since:
February 2, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I think it should stay as is. High risk; high reward. Everything about this server is well-defined and up front so you know what you're getting into when you go to the nether or the end.

January 27, 2014
4:23 pm
sts512
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 109
Member Since:
February 4, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

All valuable points made here, I might as well throw in my own two bits.

First off: People talk about rebuilding, but this is not really a possibility with some things going on.

My last 3 days in the End:

Day 1- repaired string in End farm to help spawning continue

Day 2- found parts of the floor removed, people complaining about griefed items

Day 3- returned to find farm griefed again, string and tripwire hooks broken

See what I mean?

 

The End farm is a very valuable resource, and helps alot of people get things they need. New players can start off with a plethora of enchanted items, and existing players can gather experience to help repair or make new gear. The XP is easy to get, but it provides a nice adventure of trying to get to it through a PvP enabled area (make no mistake, I don't like the spam of people asking for items and complaining about campingWink.) The addition of the farm has devalued enchanted items, but there are other ways to make money. Like Miba says, the End farm is a great community build that we can all enjoy, or at the very least use to our advantage. Why destroy that chance?

#swoloyag
January 27, 2014
4:28 pm
sts512
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 109
Member Since:
February 4, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I did a horrible job of summing up my point.

So

 

I think the farm should remain just as it is. Occasional griefs are OK, they add fun to fixing it. It does get a little monotonous going into the End over and over again to fix something someone has destroyed, but we'll live. There are other ways to get XP than sitting in a box and left clicking to watch massive amounts of green and yellow dots flow into your inventory. It does make the game a little easy.

 

Cheers, and hope we can resolve this soon and go back to enjoying MC.

#swoloyag
January 27, 2014
4:34 pm
Miba
United States
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 20
Member Since:
February 2, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Just to clarify, I do agree with all that Sts but primarily I think the entire End should remain an "anything goes" zone and remain unprotected (I don't think that's what you were going for).

 

Also I'm sorry if you're the one handling most the repairs :(

 

Edit: Oh good deal, I wasn't sure what you meant there haha

January 27, 2014
4:45 pm
sts512
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 109
Member Since:
February 4, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Haha, I don't really care about the repairs. Like you said, gives me some desperately needed redstone practice.

Edit: Well, I can't read. I see that that video is for the Overworld, looks cool :P

#swoloyag
January 27, 2014
7:08 pm
SlocumFamily2
Member
Members


Knight
Forum Posts: 223
Member Since:
January 13, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

To clarify a bit

First:  In my first comment, when I said the creator was no longer on the server, I did not mean Meatballz.  I meant the person who built the enderman trap.  I am sure Meatballz will have the final word over all of this.  And that is how it should be.

To address Miba's comments:

This conversation (from my end) started because some players were griefing over and over (and over) just to be annoying.  They weren't trying to create a challenge for us.  They just wanted to be jerks.  And they bragged about it. And danced around the fact what they did was legal.
Therefore, the idea of protecting the area arose, so players could not legally do this. 

It is -- for me -- actually about not allowing players to "pick on" and annoy other players in the End...when if they went through a portal and did the exact same thing... they would be banned. 

(This is not a comment on PvP.  It is about these players purposely annoying others who they knew used the Enderman farm and were upset at previous griefing.  That gave them joy, so they kept doing it.  That is, in my opinion, immature and [insert words I can't say].)

But there is, I believe, no clear way of defining what "jerk" or "annoying" or "being picked on" is.  You just know when it is happening to you or others.  Therefore, a clear way to prevent it is to create a rule that won't allow such people to do this.  Either that, or say the trap cannot exist.  Period.  Since it can't be created above where it could be protected, the options are limited.

Resource farms are an object of discussion no matter what they are.  All make the game much easier.  Frankly, I don't understand why iron farms are allowed.  Especially when gold farms are not.  Yet, if griefing was allowed in the main world, I would not take it upon myself to destroy iron farms I found. 

Sure, I was annoyed last night (to me peeved and annoyed are about the same).  Because the conversation was going on forever.  (I think Emulated was trying to make sure I had a solid argument.) It was late, I was getting tired.  And I don't want to be around these immature players. That is why I never chose another server.  For the most part, VC is good at weeding out the troublemakers.  But these kids are being persistent in their annoyance.  It isn't for any purpose other than to piss people off.

I don't think of it as a race.  I don't even aspire (at least at this point) to have a city like Vetra, Dwarf City, or Palmanova, or Vetropolis, or any of the other highly-build places.  But, if I lose my armor fighting a Blaze (just so I can get a couple rods -- which I don't want to simply buy), I don't want to then have to spend two days building up XP to get decent armor back.  I don't enjoy that.

This game, for me, is about mining and building.  Not about having to spend long periods of time building up XP simply so I can have a chance at enchanting a pickax to Fortune III. 
Yes, in my normal routine of mining, breeding, slaughtering, smelting, etc. I gain XP.  But pretty much only enough for one chance at a top enchantment.  Even using my Spider trap is time consuming to the point of boredom. And I don't find that fun.  Therefore I like the option of the Enderman Farm for XP points.

That aside, I still stand that if it is going to exist it should be protected as all other resource farms are.  If it isn't going to be protected, it should not exist.

 

And...just to be a troublemaker...I ask:  If we can't make a gold farm in the "no rules" Nether...why are we allowed to make an enderman farm in the "no rules" End? 

(I wouldn't make a gold farm or iron farm personally.  I already find more than I need mining.)

 

Thanks for listening.  And I am happy to see this conversation has remained intelligent and thoughtful.  Quite an accomplishment for an internet forum, really.  KissCool

January 28, 2014
1:49 pm
LightWarriorK
Aelfheim, Arda
Moderator
Members


Viceroy


Senior Mod
Forum Posts: 2154
Member Since:
June 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

SlocumFamily2 said
To clarify a bit

First:  In my first comment, when I said the creator was no longer on the server, I did not mean Meatballz.  I meant the person who built the enderman trap.  I am sure Meatballz will have the final word over all of this.  And that is how it should be.

Ahhh, yes, I read that wrong.  You're correct that the original creator of the Ender is no longer active, however that doesn't mean the build becomes property of the community.  If it were anywhere else other than Nether or End, it'd have been dismantled by staff.  It's an anomaly, and the fact that it's subject to grief makes it even more so.

That aside, I still stand that if it is going to exist it should be protected as all other resource farms are.  If it isn't going to be protected, it should not exist.

Which resource farms are those?  The only ones I know of are privately Res'd ones, however Residences are not allowed in the End.  To my knowledge, the server does not provide any communal farms for everyone's benefit.

And...just to be a troublemaker...I ask:  If we can't make a gold farm in the "no rules" Nether...why are we allowed to make an enderman farm in the "no rules" End? 

It's a different situation with gold farms.  If you want to make a Pigman trap IN the Nether, that's fine.  It's the same as any other mob trap.  However, gold farms made outside the Nether are made with massive numbers of portals which cause significant server lag, and violate our rules on dynamic content.  We had to put a stop to them when several large ones nearly shut us down.

It is — for me — actually about not allowing players to "pick on" and annoy other players in the End…when if they went through a portal and did the exact same thing… they would be banned. 

If that's your main point, then I guess the answer is that, yes, the rules do allow for jerks to pick on other people in The End.  I know it sounds harsh, but that's what keeping the End challenging.  If we start protecting stuff from grief, then it becomes that haven I mentioned earlier, and that was never the intent.  Again, this is my own opinion, but I would sooner nuke it once a day and keep folks fighting Endermen for massive XP as Minecraft intended than protect an exploit.

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
January 28, 2014
3:57 pm
terrorisly
Colorado
Moderator
Members


Senior Mod


Viceroy
Forum Posts: 424
Member Since:
July 12, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Even as an SM, I think LWK summed up every point about this situation beautifully. The Ender Ender was never meant to be a server resource. It was a farm built by a player in the End. Anybody who goes into The End should fully realize every risk of going in there, which includes the possibility of the farm being griefed, you being killed and losing all of your experience and good tools anyway, and other factors. These rules were in place before the Ender Ender was even a thought.

I believe that, while it is a good resource going for those who want fast xp, it's great the way it is. It's a RISK. You should never be safe going into the End just because you don't want to earn your XP through other, safer methods. Even if I were not a donor or mod, I wouldn't mind what goes on in the Nether or the End. I avoid these two places just for that reason. I'm awful at PVP. Heck, even the Enderman roaming the End itself give me trouble because I'm simply bad at the game.  

I would also like to address the issue of "picking on" players in The End. I know you don't like it, SlocumFamily2, and yes, it really is a jerk thing to do. However, this is also the result of allowing PVP and griefing in The End. Yes, somebody who "doesn't like you" can hunt you down and kill you as soon as you enter The End. This hypothetical person can do what they want to prevent you from getting all that massive XP for free, be it destroying the farm, taking the enchanting table, or whatever else. You are the one taking that risk by entering the portal to the End. You are the one who is fully aware of the rules concerning the End. It's in my opinion that as soon as you enter the End, it is your responsibility if something happens to you there and you lose all of your tools and XP. There is a lot of strategy involved with The End; not even staff have a different playing field there.  LWK's company picnic analogy was perfect. Nobody is disagreeing with the fact that it may be a jerk thing to do, but you are the one ultimately responsible for knowing and understanding the rules.

If you want a way to get safe XP, it's better to find a spawner in one of the other non-PVP enabled worlds, set it up, and residence it yourself. As others have said, there are plenty of ways to get that safe XP. There is no reason for the Ender Ender, which is not a server resource, to be protected.

As for the "maturity" rules, I think it also stands that we as players must have the responsibility of acting maturely in response to what happens in the PVP and griefing enabled End. If you die trying to enchant something in the End, it's your responsibility to accept it instead of getting upset. As I said earlier in my post, you accept that you understand the rules of the End as soon as you step foot through that portal. It's sort of a contract, in that case. As Miba said earlier, if you enter the End and find that the farm you want to use has been griefed and is non-functional, take it upon yourself to learn how it works by visiting Google, YouTube, or whatever resource you prefer, and fix it, instead of getting upset that a non guaranteed thing has been broken. This stops a lot of the issues that go on with the End. Please keep in mind that I am not calling this discussion or any other immature; I'm simply stating the best way to prevent arguments and unnecessary complaints from my moderator stance.

<3
January 28, 2014
9:44 pm
SlocumFamily2
Member
Members


Knight
Forum Posts: 223
Member Since:
January 13, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Just as an addendum to this conversation:

It turns out that the problematic players (who were immature, in my opinion) managed to get themselves banned anyway.

 

I dunno...maybe I am living in a dream where I want a perfect virtual world.  Nobody likes everybody, but I would rather people not be purposely mean to other, and target each other.  Even if it is technically allowed.

There is a difference between saying "ooh, look someone is over there!" and going and attacking them, and making a point of going after only certain people.  That is what I don't want to be around.  I have enough drama in my real like, know what I mean?  (I am sure ya'll do.)

 

I also suffered from the misconception (corrected several days ago) that the Enderman farm was created by the VC staff.  So it totally stumped my why it was allowed to mess with it.  Not knowing the situation (and never having played on a public server before) it seemed to go against all the other logical rules of the server.

Regarding a gold farm:

If the main reason for not allowing one in the main one is server lag/resources (which makes total sense), why would it be allowed in the nether?  You'd still need the same system, yes?

I know there are iron farm, and yes they are res'd (something impossible to do with an enderman farm).  And I don't think they should be allowed even in a private res'd area (just like gold farms aren't). 

And my argument would be pretty much the same as the argument against the enderman farm.  It makes things too easy, and goes against the essence of the game.

 

Anyways...this seems to be resolving itself just with time.  I endlessly heard from people who were upset about the farm griefing...but they aren't popping in to comment here.  So... with no "yes" votes...it is obvious what will happen unless the Powers That Be decide to change things.

Frankly, there is no way I would go and make an enderman farm at this point.  Cause I am not going to waste my time on something that someone can destroy on a whim.

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 442

Currently Online:
10 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Emulated: 3206

ryanpitts: 1300

Dalferes: 747

Pherian: 660

Okarim: 594

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 10

Members: 15136

Moderators: 3

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 8

Forums: 45

Topics: 6229

Posts: 27412

Newest Members: Robertjap, essaypirapro, Smstap, sueup69, jhekzwicle, YandobaThync, cathleeniq18, SSHABnap, Timonneili, DavimUsand, PALAGI26, rolandei16, essaypro, ManuelAcoub, JoshuaMearl, Robertneili, Olegchemy, alisabz11, Enriquevot, MANWILL53

Moderators: terrorisly: 424, mudwog: 127, LightWarriorK: 2154

Administrators: meatbawllz: 2475, frelling: 3264