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Player survey for possible new market town
Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
January 2, 2015
7:55 pm
greens7976
Caer Innis, Vetronia
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There's been a lot of discussion on chat lately about how unorganized New Glacia is.  Its really a collection of independent claims instead of  GP plug-in enabled town.  While its eclectic nature is fun and has its own appeal, it has some major  drawbacks. 

First, some of the moderators don't like the way that it uses the Compass Ship for access--that's not the purpose of the Compass Ship. 

Second, because New Glacia is sandwiched between the Compass Ship claim and a player's claim that was there before New Glacia, new players can't get shops in the central area where the customers can find them. 

Third, some of the claims have been abandoned or the build on them was started and never finished.  This makes parts of the town look like they were greifed.

Last, and least important: some of the builds are plain ugly.  A few of them are awesome, but others are painful to look at.

 

So what is my purpose in all this negativity?  To propose an alternative and ask all the players if they think its a good idea.

One of the moderators put it in stark simplicity: "If you don't like it, pay for your own portal ship and build a real shop venue."  I am willing to pay for the sponsorship that will give me the shillings to do this (even though it would take me from the project that I really enjoy), but only if players think that an alternative is needed and will open shops in the new town.

 

Here are the details of what I propose:

The new town will have a portal ship from Exodus docked at a central plaza. The plaza will be ringed by 9x9 one-story stalls, then a ring of 9x18 two-story houses, then a wall.  There will be no access to the surrounding countryside from the ship, dock, or town (other than by jump compass).  The ship, docks, roads, town walls, plaza gardens, stalls, and houses will be built by me (or someone I employ).  Shopkeepers will only have /trust within the interior of their shop.  Shopkeepers must use the door to their shop at least every 30 days so I can check it with Logblock.  Shopkeepers who I cannot see on Logblock for more than 30 days will have their /trust revoked and I will work with the moderators to free that space for someone else.

 

I really want to hear what you think about this.  Does it sound too rigid?  Would you be willing to keep a shop there?

If I get positive feedback, it will take me about a month to gather materials and at least two months building.  If I get negative feedback, I'll be happy to stay a Knight, keep my shop in New Glacia, and work on my own build.

"And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth." Genesis 11:3-5
January 2, 2015
11:53 pm
kooms1983
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I would like to see something more organized, I believe every plot in a shopping district should be the same size to make it easier to find things. And if you need a place there is plenty of room up at my corner of the world that has ocean access. I would also let you have access to my stone generator for any stone/cobblestone you need

January 3, 2015
5:07 am
Okarim
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I find it a bit rigid. The only place where I'd place a shop myself is a place that I and others can get a portal ship to as well. That way it would not only be an economic hub, but also a travel hub. An enclosed environment sounds far from friendly and would not be easily accessable. It also takes away the potential of people going 'hey, I want to live near that place, let's connect to it.'

I avoided the concept myself since I don't plan on getting a ship to Exodus myself, because I don't know if I'll be around enough to earn the upkeep. I was hoping someone with a big plot of land would set up for this, someone who already has the resources and plans for a future Exodus ship. Any shopping district made by people who don't have those would be problematic because I believe a marketplace should be a hub of commerce and as such a hub of travel, and should be built as part of a bigger project, not as its own.

January 3, 2015
9:36 am
greens7976
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Thanks for your feedback.  This is exactly what I need to know.  If most players want a transportation hub with a market instead of a market that they can get to from Exodus, then I know this project is not for me.

 

How about the rest of you?  Would you open a shop in a town whose sole purpose is a market?

"And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth." Genesis 11:3-5
January 3, 2015
11:23 am
Frenchy
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I would be more than happy in the construction of such a town. For a while, I was planning to use my city's bottom level as a potential shopping district, but as the buildings have all been pre-made, some issues may arise. If you folks would actually be interested in this happening, we can talk about it. I would, however, need help completing my portal ship (Hiring possibility here)

 

On the other hand, if we want a brand new town, I am sure that I can assist in the matter.

January 3, 2015
1:08 pm
Trip6s6i6x
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Edit: Nevermind all of that, main post addressed most of the points and I didn't read for comprehension, lol.

Greens, this is going to be alot of maintenance on your end (being the benefactor). I would suggest you charge monthly for merchant stalls to help offset the portal ship maintenance cost, though I have no idea how you would go about tracking payments from merchants, as I don't think the economy system currently in place supports anything like that - hope you like Excel.

If you decide to ultimately push forward with your idea, I hope you succeed with it. The server could definitely use a centralized trade area -- it's the only thing that really stimulates the server economy.

Don't Panic -Douglas Adams
January 3, 2015
3:27 pm
Pauli90
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While I appreciate Greens' purpose to found a new shop town in order to overcome the current situation with Glacia, I'm also skeptical about the propounded concept. The actual plan, as I understand it, comprises to bypass the fact that a marchand hall can't be built in Exodus itself by setting it up at some pleasant beach and to connect it with Exodus via portal ship. It'd be an outsourced merchand hall, Glacia 2.0, only with an own ship and surely looking nicer. It'd probably work as well. However, to be honest, I am glad that there's no central merchand hall anymore. The dominance of Vetropolis could be suffocating to some extend. The economic importance of other places in the world in those days was close to zero and besides your curiosity about other players' architectonic affords you had no reason to travel and to look around. If you wanted to buy or sell something, you only had to type '/spawn'. Afterwards you could return '/home' to continue your private big projects. This was effective, but not very... vivid.

Arda is now offering the chance to enliven the entire world, not just the spawn city. And trade is one key to it. I suggest, players should form communities and communities should found cities. At least some of these cities could have shopping districts with player markets. Of course, there'd be competition among these cities: concerning the number of shops they're housing, the number of players living there, but also concerning accessability or simply beauty. There could be sporty contests among these cities as well...

I see, my argumentation exceeds the question of having a new market town, however: Arda consisting of many city-states like the Ancient Greece (well, more peacefully)... to me, it sounds nice. In my eyes, it is a better idea than striving for a replica of the old merchand hall that we won't have again (for good reasons). So, if anyone is going to found such a city, let me know. ;)

Back in my day zombies dropped feathers!
January 3, 2015
5:11 pm
NetherSpartan5
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I'm going to be a lopsided with my opinion on New Glacia, though I will try to be unbiased. For I never was nor am I now a fan of a Community Market right outside a compass ship's pathway. Now I like what Pauli stated, we should enjoy and explore, and not have to go to an uneven, and unorganized market right outside our spawn. So here I go:

 

My thoughts against New Glacia:

  • Its Location Near Spawn: New Glacia was built by one player who wanted a convenient location to export and import goods. However, players in the mass began building and selling items near his store. During Arda's beginning, the Staff made it clear that they would keep Exodus as a showcase. To promote exploration and visiting other towns. The town rests just outside the South Compass Portal and continues to grow, with a player setting up shop every week. However, I believe the town defeats the purpose of "encouraging exploration", due to its location near the portal ship.
  • Its Location Pt. 2: New Glacia rests just outside the Compass Claim, and I've seen that a few people don't like the way it sucks off the Southern Compass Ship. I believe, personally, the land should be untouched and free for sightseeing. 
  • Unorganized: The layout of New Glacia was great... when it was smaller! Players in the mass wanted to invest their wealth in shops. But a couple of claims were there before, and after the town was built. A player had set up a beautiful mansion just Southeast of the city, and went inactive for a while. But at the same time, New Glacia began to expand and eventually it puked all over that gorgeous mansion and even cages it in from the South a bit. Now the only way to expand are in the Central region and to the East, which have amazing scenic views. This leaves the only reasonable way to expand: South. That would then consume and connect with the shops towards the East, and block Recanize's sweet mansion's breathing room (although I'm unsure about his reason for building there, or if it was before New Glacia). Information is limited, and the street layout is not great either. Not saying that it's bad, but there has to be a better solution.
  • Inactivity and Open Spots: Many players hop on the server, find out about New Glacia and invest their wealth in a shop. Well, two weeks later, the SMP becomes boring and they wander off in search of something new. There are a number of inactive shops, half-built claims, badly damaged spots, and other ugly behemoths. Open spots are just the ripe apple for griefers to just tear apart and ruin. The roads and some shops lay unclaimed and could be introduced to the griever's pickaxe. I believe New Glacia is somewhat an unsafe, and potential grief grounds due to its poor claiming.

Now I'm not here to rip apart New Glacia. Despite a number of problems and bad planning, New Glacia is still a community build. This is the first time I've seen something community-related since Arda's Info release, and I don't believe we'll see an Event... yet ;) . So here is where I stand with New Glacia:

  • Convenience: Its all there, in one place. If you need one item, there's bound to be a store with it. This was captured when Adituno set up shop there a week after Arda's release. Players began selling items that weren't available in other shops to gain a bit of the wealth. Another convenience is that New Glacia provides easy access with traveling... BUT only at the entrance. The Western region of the town is poorly designed, and many buildings there don't belong. I digress.
  • Community Get Together: For once since Arda's release, I've seen an actual Community project. I didn't realize this until a week ago. New Glacia is a community project. This is what keeps a small server stable, is a community that works together. During the dark ages of Vetronia, I was sometimes the only player on during the week. There were no community projects, no nothing, and the server was dying. We NEED Community projects.
That's my for and against New Glacia statement, now I'm not going to respond to an argument if it seems I set one up for you. I stand where I stand, and personally, I think New Glacia should be relocated, or the shops be moved to the person's main claim. But I do have some proposals or ideas if New Glacia does remain the sole merchant town. 
 
  1. New Glacia needs to be reorganized, and inactive shops need to be destroyed to make room for scenery or more shops. The roads also need markers, and a master list of the shops must be kept somewhere inside the town, as well as the names of the shops on certain roads. A Visitor Center would be the perfect "next project".
  2. Remove any buildings that don't serve purpose there. I saw houses that people live in, inside the city. I also believe Recanize's mansion should be respected, and left alone. 
  3. One overall claim would be nice, but is out of the question.
  4. Unnecessary sized claims should no longer be allowed, they waste potential scenery and space. The only exception I see, and not being a "kiss-butt" is LWK's store. It actually has a small base, and rather than sits inside city limits, it lays outside the boundary and utilizes and preserves the land.

I'm not Staff and I'm not here to dictate, but these are my thoughts on New Glacia now that I have a chance to express them. I will say this, I do like the fact Adituno encouraged a town, and a few others came in and took up the opportunity to run this. But there are a few flaws that I don't like, and I will speak my mind respectfully about them. In no way was I hear to destroy and rip apart New Glacia, only to show its flaws. I'm also going to repeat this, I don't want this to turn into another Ender Grinder argument. If you feel the need to counter my proposals and disagree with what I saw in the flaws, you are free to comment for I will not comment back. That only adds fuel to the fire which I might create.

 

If you're going to create a merchant city with a functioning portal ship to restart, I wish you the best of luck. Like Trips said, the server does need a steady and sturdy economy. Even though I like the idea of traveling thirty minutes to go from city to city trying to find the cheapest diamonds. Convenience is also a big factor in a "sturdy economy".

 

Cheers!

NS5

January 3, 2015
5:47 pm
Trip6s6i6x
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With the old setup in Vetronia, there were dozens of portal ships at spawn and I could use them to go virtually anywhere on the map that I wanted to go -- whether I wanted to shop or not when I got there is irrelevant, I could still go there. If we're talking about encouragement to explore the world, having relatively quick access to remote parts of the world absolutely encourages exploration.

The real difference between then and now: The only portal ships at spawn now are the one that brings in newbs and the one that teleports you off spawn island... because regardless of the intentions for raising the cost, in practice what we're seeing is people just can't afford them (evidenced by the fact that we'd be seeing requests for them newer than 3-4 months ago otherwise).

It's not a centralized trading hub that's preventing people from exploring and branching out into the world, it's the world having been increased to 3 times the size it was before, along with people also now having to walk everywhere in this much larger world because there's no quick transportation around this new world like there was before, when dozens of portal ships lined the docks of Vetropolis.

Considering the world currently as is, a central trading hub makes more sense to me (New Glacia or otherwise). I could see making a shop stall myself. My only question is this, if a shopkeeper isn't able to access their stall in 30 days (for whatever reason) and they still have items in their shop, what happens to the items in their shop when you request a mod clear them out? A 30-day grace period seems like a somewhat short period of time, especially when shopkeepers have chests of their own stuff stored in those areas.

Don't Panic -Douglas Adams
January 4, 2015
4:53 am
Okarim
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There are plenty of people who can afford a Portal Ship, but because their big projects aren't done yet they're not getting one yet. For example, I only want to get one once I got my fort and docks built. We could get ships first, of course, but I imagine some mentally go 'I want to make sure I get it right before I lock myself into the ship'.

January 4, 2015
10:40 am
Pauli90
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Whatever, there are opinions for and against the idea of a new town of which sole purpose would consist in being a merchand hall outside the spawn city (because you can't have one inside). It's not forbidden to start another one-man-project with the intention of renting or selling parts of it to other players. It'd possibly even be more successfull than similar attempts in former Vetronia due to the lack of competition by the central merchand hall. However, in my opinion, it doesn't take the chances Arda offers.

I guess, the purpose of making Arda that huge and keeping Exodus a showcase was to encourage players to move closer together, to settle with each other, to work and to build with each other and to have the experience of really playing on a multiplayer server. There'll always be hermits and loners (like me), but is it acceptable, if we're all and always like that? It is on us to team up. I'd appreciate, if we did as I described in my post above.

Concerning myself: I had few time within the past months and maybe I'll have few time still within the next months. If this should change some day, I'd like to found a market town, but housing players' shops wouldn't be its sole purpose and I wouldn't like to build this city alone.

Back in my day zombies dropped feathers!
January 4, 2015
10:58 am
Trip6s6i6x
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@Okarim: Well ok then, if people can afford them but are waiting on completion of large projects then I stand corrected on people not being able to afford them (I guess that's just me then, lol). But again, what we're seeing in practice is an empty harbor (for whatever reasons).. and we're all currently left walking/riding horses to get anywhere around the world. That being the case, until such time as this changes and portal ships again start lining the new harbors, it makes sense to have a centralized merchant/trading area to promote player commerce and an active economy -- and if you wanna bring players together, that's the quickest way to do it as well. As far as that goes, and to answer the question posed in the OP, yes, I'll offer to make a stall myself in this new trade center if one ends up being implemented.

@Pauli: Scheduling is what really makes it hard to coordinate and come together for projects... but that's also where projects like merchant/trade halls work better as well. When time is limited and no one knows when anyone else is going to be online, it's easier for people to set up independent small areas within an overall larger community area than it is for people to coordinate to build the larger structures and actually create that larger area. You almost need a dedicated forum to coordinate everything and get all those independent players with competing schedules on the same page... actually, doesn't this forum offer something like that? (It's something for you to check into if you're wanting to bring people together to form community builds, anyway... it's not a bad goal by any stretch to want to achieve).

Don't Panic -Douglas Adams
January 4, 2015
1:33 pm
Rangasp
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Me and Braleth have come up with a design for the shopping mall, it isnt anywhere near finished but this is the basic structure

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2ds1itx.jpg

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2s7z94z.jpg

 

The mall can hold up to 60 active shops

Each shop would have an elevator in front

Each shop would have its own subclaim permissions

There would be a centralized guide to search for shops names to make use of the /shop find command

It will have its own portal ship with a large port to make room for more ships

The shops will have customizable walls/roof/floor

 

What do you guys think?

 

I've already got a good location to build this

 

Keep in mind the design isnt finished yet as i said before

January 4, 2015
1:46 pm
Braleth
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We went through a bunch of design ideas to work with and accommodate the mechanics of GP claims and permissions.  I.E. GP claims are not three dimensional, we can't specify a Y co-ordinate when setting a claim.

So, with that in mind, we needed a design that would:

1. Scale
2. Be easy to navigate/get around in (open design, plenty of signs with shop names and fit within the 150 block range of the /shop find command).
3. Does not grant any specific shop any location advantage over another (hence lots of elevators to move from floor to floor).
4. Most importantly, allow for permanent GP sub-claim permissions to be granted to a shop owner and not interfere with any other shop (Shops/claims can not be directly above/below another shop).

 

The screenshots show the functional structure of the design, the overall building would still need a nice looking exterior shell around it... probably Okamat's job :) .

January 4, 2015
2:06 pm
LightWarriorK
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A lot of good discussion here!  I love it!  I wish the forums were active like this on multiple threads.

Anyways, I wanted to reiterate that players are more than welcome to make their own markets, and have them as free (unclaimed and hodge-podge like New Glacia) or controlled (fully claimed and subclaimed) as they want.

It IS recommended, as others have said, to possibly do multiple ships at these markets, to encourage linkages to other builds.  Remember, ONLY the ships going to Exodus have maintenance fees.  And so long as the set up and fees are paid, players can cobble them together however they want.  You can charge for establishing subclaims in builds, you can assess monthly fees, you can charge a docking fee for ships close to an Exodus ship, etc.  So long as you are charging in good faith and are openly stating costs, you are free to do as you please within your claim (within the Rules, naturally).

As for coordination, I have some suggestions.  First, anyone coordinating a new market would be smart to do a Lore Wiki page. http://www.veterancraft.net/wi.....lore-wiki/  It's in terrible need of updating, but any VC member can get editing access.  You just need to PM meatbawllz so he can add you.  You can provide all the information on the build, set policies, etc.

For plots and pricing and anything for spreadsheets, Google Sheets is a good way to go.  It can be shared publicly or to a set few, and actively edited.  A good way to coordinate who is buying what in the market.

Lastly, if this is a community build, or if some players are looking to repair and revitalize New Glacia, a good method for project coordination is Trello: https://trello.com/  You can assign tasks, upload pictures, have comment threads, etc.  Staff used it for working on opening Arda, and still uses it for bugs/issues/etc.

Best of luck!

"Awake, oh man, and be wise." -Thoth
January 4, 2015
3:47 pm
Sgt_Hurls
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So going along those lines, perhaps there should be one portal shop docked in Exodus that goes to a market, and then ships at the market that spread out to other players' builds. Everyone that sets up a shop in the market could contribute an equal amount to the monthly docking fees- more markets would equal a lower and lower cost per shop owner. At 10,000/month to dock in Exodus, 10 shop owners would only need to pay $1,000/month each (2 days of voting!). 20 shops/owners would only pay $500/each (can be gained by 1 day of voting!). This would require one person to "handle the money" so to say, but I think it is easily doable. The $100,000 portal fee for the Exodus ship could be a joint-purchase from a wide range of people too.

I'm not the best architect, but for location I would suggest one of the many medium-to-large islands that dot the Central Arda Sea. No houses on the island either; all builds would have to be shops on equal-sized plots. The market should probably be single-floor like New Glacia to prevent y-axis problems, and have a grid-based layout with wide, level streets to facilitate expansion and navigation. I think the north end of a large island 3600 blocks north of Exodus could work for a location- (I have a small claim there that I would remove). It's fairly flat and almost has a natural harbor that could be utilized.

Whatever happens, I'd be willing to help.

Signed, ~Sgt_Hurls~
January 5, 2015
2:34 pm
Braleth
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It seems we have multiple implementations for a new shop town all in the beginning stages and all pulling in different directions.

A couple of us were scouting potential locations in Arda yesterday for a new player shop area and we were very close to starting to clear a space when we took a step back to discuss the whole project again: Pros/Cons of the existing portal ships, New Glacia as it is now, player purchased portal ships and relying on someone to pay the monthly rent, the admin over head and logistics involved with charging players rent in a new shop area/town, issues around managing the sub-claims within a central market area and the obvious impact of real life on shop owners as well as the person/people looking after the market area.

Anyway, while scouting and discussing building sites, we noticed construction has already begun near the South Portal ship by Escerine (-6868, 6383) for the New Arda Mall/Market.

From the activity on the forums, it looks like Greens7976 has picked a spot as well and started planing/building a new market town as well (1317, 10112) and even spent hard currency to upgrade to Viceroy status to gather shillings for the project.

It's great to see this much interest from the community for a single project/idea, but I'm very skeptical of how it will turn out if we're all rowing in different directions.

January 5, 2015
4:36 pm
greens7976
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I think multiple implementations are a good thing.  Mo' choices mo' bettah!

I realized that by investing my own cash, I could get the project done.  But that doesn't mean my solution is optimal. It also means that we don't have to worry about a lack of available shop space. And as LWK pointed out,  we can have portal ships connecting these markets directly to each other.

I've changed my dock plans from a wharf that would accommodate one ship to a pier that would accommodate two and could be extended later if there is demand for more.  It would be awesome if we had a whole chain of markets and towns to explore.

The only drawback is that some markets might not have many occupied shops, but I think the shops will fill up with time.  Remember that New Glacia started out just with Adituno's Red Market and in just 4 months it is running out of space.

I encourage everybody to continue to work on their plans. As Spock would say: "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations." (Yes, I'm a total geek!)

"And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth." Genesis 11:3-5
January 5, 2015
5:14 pm
Frenchy
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I would rather have the town farther away from previous civilization, so that we could draw attention to a new area of the map. Escerine's spot is to close to the South Ship, and New Glacia itself.

 

I think I have found a spot that may be interesting, as it is, for the most part, isolated from pretty much everything else, and is very far away from any portal ships. This could present a new option to beginners on the server for a region to go live in, where they would be close to the shopping town. Heck, later on, we could build a housing district.

Here is the spot in question: http://maps.veterancraft.net/?.....;z=15866.5

It contains a lake, a nice beach area, a little roofed forest oasis, and is connected by land to a vast plains biome. There is a zombie spawner very close by, meaning Villagers should be easy to acquire, and could be turned into a mob farm. It is directly connected to the main sea of Arda, (which, off-topic, needs a name) and therefore could contain both a port and a skyport.

I am going to let this council of investors decide if this location is fitting, but personally, I rest my case, that this region is best for this project.

January 6, 2015
12:30 pm
Pauli90
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I like the spot you found, Frenchy. From what I can see on the map, it could be even too beautiful to pave it with a city.

As I mentioned, I possibly don't have much time, but I'd be willing to help you there.

Back in my day zombies dropped feathers!
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